Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) PEOPLE HEADING TO IDOLATRY

(a) (Mishnah): It is forbidden to do business with people heading to serve idolatry.
(b) (Shmuel): It is forbidden to do business with a Nochri heading to idolatry, because he will thank the idolatry;

1. It is permitted to do business with a Nochri returning - he already served, he will not do anything more.
2. It is permitted to do business with a Yisrael heading to idolatry, perhaps he will not go;
3. It is forbidden to do business with a Yisrael returning - perhaps he will return to the idolatry.

(c) Question (Beraisa): It is forbidden to do business with a Yisrael going to or returning from idolatry.
(d) Answer (Rav Ashi): The Beraisa refers to a Mumar, when he heads to idolatry, he will surely complete his journey.
(e) (Beraisa): It is permitted to do business with a Nochri heading to or returning from a fair;

1. It is permitted to do business with a Yisrael heading to a fair, it is forbidden to do business with a Yisrael returning.
2. Question: Presumably, it is forbidden when a Yisrael returns because we are concerned that his money came from selling idolatry - we should also be concerned regarding a Nochri!
3. Answer: We assume that the Nochri sold a garment or wine (not of idolatry).
4. Question: We should also assume that the Yisrael sold a garment or wine!
5. Answer: If so, he would have sold it here, rather, than at the fair.

(f) (Mishnah): It is permitted to do business with someone returning (from idolatry).
(g) (Reish Lakish): This is only if he is alone, if a group returns, it is forbidden, perhaps they will go back to the idolatry.

(a) (Mishnah - R. Meir): A pouch or bottle of a Nochri...
(b) Version #1 - Rashi - (Beraisa): A (leather) pouch of a Nochri: if it is new (wine was not put in for an extended time) and has no pitch, it is permitted (since leather does not absorb much); if it is old or has pitch, it is forbidden.
(c) Version #2 - Tosfos - (Beraisa): A pouch of a Nochri from which the pitch was removed is permitted (after scrubbing, because wine is not left in it for a long time);

1. If it has pitch, even if it looks new, it is forbidden (lest it once was used, but we cannot tell, therefore one must Kasher it with boiling water). (End of Version #2)
2. If a Nochri melted pitch in it and put in wine and a Yisrael supervised (when making the pouch), we are not concerned (that the Nochri was Menasech the wine).
3. Question: If the Nochri put in wine, the presence of the Yisrael does not help at all!
4. Answer #1 (Rav Papa): It means, if a Nochri melted pitch in it and a Yisrael put in wine and a second Yisrael supervised, we are not concerned.

i. Question: Why is a second Yisrael needed?
ii. Answer: The Yisrael putting in wine is busy, perhaps he will not notice if the Nochri is Menasech.

5. Answer #2 (Rav Zvid): Really, the Nochri put in wine; since the wine will enter the pitch and dry up, like water used to knead mud, we are not concerned for it.

(d) (Rav Papi): We learn from Rav Zvid that if a Nochri puts wine in a vessel full of salt (Rashi; Tosfos - the place where salt is made by boiling off the water), it is permitted.
(e) Objection (Rav Ashi): Rav Zvid's case is different, there the wine is lost, but not regarding salt!
(f) Bar Edi stole flasks of Rav Yitzchak bar Yosef; he put wine in them, and later returned them.

1. R. Yirmeyah: In such a case, R. Ami ruled that one should fill them with water for three days and pour it out.
2. (Rava): After every 24 hours, he must pour out the water and put in new water.

(g) (We are thinking that this is only if Nochri wine was put in vessels first used by a Yisrael (for the initial, primary absorptions are of permitted liquids), but this would not help for vessels first used by Nochrim (the primary absorptions may be forbidden).
(h) (Rejection - Ravin): This helps even for vessels first used by Nochrim.
(i) (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): This is only for flasks (Rashi - because leather does not absorb very much; Tosfos - because wine is not normally stored there for a long time), but not for bottles.
(j) Rejection (Rav Ashi): This is even for bottles.
(k) (Beraisa): A bottle of a Nochri: if it was never used and never had pitch (Rashi; Tosfos - the pitch was removed), it is permitted;

1. If it was used or has (Rashi - or once had) pitch, it is forbidden.
2. If a Nochri put wine in it, a Yisrael may put water in it (Tosfos ha'Rosh - and the water is permitted; Rashi - three times for 24 hours, to Kasher it);
3. If a Nochri put wine in it, a Yisrael may put brine or Muryas in it (Tosfos' text - if a Nochri put wine in it, and a Yisrael put brine or Muryas in it, a Yisrael may now put wine in it).

(l) Question: May a Yisrael may put brine or Muryas in it l'Chatchilah?
(m) Answer (Rav Zvid bar Oshaya): If one buys new vessels from a Nochri, he may put wine in them;

1. If the vessels are old, he may put brine or Muryas in it - l'Chatchilah.

(n) Question (R. Yehudah Nesi'ah): If one put the vessels in a furnace and fired them, what is the law?
(o) Answer (R. Ami): Even brine annihilates the absorptions, all the more so fire!
(p) Support (R. Yochanan): If one put vessels of a Nochri in a furnace, once the pitch on the inside (melts and) drips out, they are permitted.
(q) (Rav Ashi): One need not wait for the pitch to drip out, once it becomes soft, they are permitted.
(r) (Rav Acha or Ravina): One may not Kasher them by putting burning chips of wood inside.
(s) (The other of Rav Acha and Ravina): One may Kasher them in this way.

1. The Halachah is, this may not be done.

(a) Question: May a Yisrael put beer (Tosfos - or other cold liquids, other than wine) in a Nochri's vessel?
(b) Answer #1 (Rav Nachman and Rav Yehudah): No.
(c) Answer #2 (Rava): Yes.
(d) Ravina permitted R. Chiya brei d'Rav Yitzchak to put beer in a Nochri's vessel; he mistakenly put in wine.

1. Still, Ravina did not decree against putting beer in - this was a chance mistake, we are not concerned for it.

(e) Rav Yitzchak bar Bisna had dung vessels (in which Yayin Nesech had been put); he put water in it (three times for 24 hours) and put it in the sun; it broke.

1. R. Aba: Chachamim did not say to put it in the sun, you caused your own loss.

(f) (Rav Yusna): Vessels of Neser can never be Kashered (Rashba; Ramban - one must wait 12 months to use them).

1. (R. Yosi bar Avin): Neser is the ground from which alum (a white powder) is taken.

(g) A person close to the king took flasks, put wine in them, and later returned them.

1. (Rav Yehudah): Wine is not stored in these for extended periods, it suffices to wash and scrub them with water.
2. (Rav Papi): Earthenware vessels of Bei Michsi (a place where the dirt is hard), it suffices to wash and scrub them with water, because they do not absorb much.

(h) (Rav Asi): (Earthenware) cups (in which a Nochri drank wine) are forbidden;
(i) (Rav): They are permitted.
(j) Version A (Rashi) - Version #1: If the Nochri drank from them the first time, all agree that they are forbidden; they argue when a Yisrael drank the first time, and a Nochri drank the second time.
(k) Version #2: If the Nochri drank from them the first or second time, all agree that they are forbidden; they argue when a Yisrael drank the first two times, and a Nochri drank the third time. (End of Version #2)

1. The Halachah is, if the Nochri drank from them the first or second time, they are forbidden; if he did not drink until the third time, they are permitted.

(l) Version B (Tosfos) - Version #1: If they were rinsed once, all agree that they are forbidden; they argue when they were rinsed twice.
(m) Version #2: If they were rinsed twice, all agree that they are forbidden; they argue when they were rinsed three times. (End of Version #2)

1. The Halachah is, if they were rinsed twice, they are forbidden; if they were rinsed three times, they are permitted.

(n) (Rav Zvid): Kunya (Earthenware vessels plated with lead (Rashi; Tosfos - glass)) of Nochrim: if they are white or black, they are permitted;

1. If they are green, they are forbidden, for they (Rashi - contain dirt from which alum is taken and) absorb greatly.
2. If they have cracks, in every case they are forbidden.

(o) (Mereimar): Kunya of Nochrim, whether black or white or green, are permitted.
(p) Question: Why is the law (of Kunya) different regarding Chametz on Pesach? (We now explain the law regarding Pesach.)

1. Question: May Kunya vessels (that were used with Chametz) be used on Pesach?

i. If they are green, they absorb, surely they are forbidden; the question is only if they are white or black;
ii. If they have cracks, they absorb, they are forbidden; the question is only if they are smooth.

2. Answer (Mereimar): The outer walls give off moisture - this shows that they absorb, they are forbidden.
3. Question: What is the source that they cannot be Kashered?
4. Answer: "U'Chli Cheres Asher Tevushal Bo Yishaver" - they must be broken because they cannot be Kashered, the absorptions never leave the walls.