Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) WHICH TREES ARE EXCLUDED

(a) (Rav): He only excludes trees that are so tall that one needs a rope to climb up (to harvest it).
(b) (Judges of Bavel): Only trees that impede a plowing ox from passing by are excluded.
(c) They do not argue: Rav discusses date trees, judges of Bavel discuss other trees.
(d) Version #1 - Question (Rav Acha bar Huna): If he sold 'Except for carob (or sycamore) Ploni (a mature tree, it would be excluded anyway)', what is the law?

1. Is that the only (mature) carob excluded, or are all excluded (as if he kept quiet)?

(e) Answer (Rav Sheshes): He does not acquire the others.
(f) Question (Beraisa): If he sold 'Except for carob (or sycamore) Ploni', he does not acquire.

1. Suggestion: This means, he does not acquire it, but he acquires the others.

(g) Answer: No, he does not acquire the others.
(h) Support: If he said 'I sell you my field, except for field Ploni', does he acquire all the fields except for Ploni?!

1. Surely, he does not; also here, he does not acquire the others.

(i) Version #2 - Question (Rav Acha bar Huna): If he sold 'Except for half of carob (or sycamore) Ploni', what is the law?

1. Surely, the others are excluded; does the buyer get the other half of carob Ploni, or not even that?

(j) Answer (Rav Sheshes): He does not acquire.
(k) Question (Beraisa): If he sold 'Except for half of carob (or sycamore) Ploni', he does not acquire.

1. Suggestion: This means, he does not acquire the others, but he acquires half of Ploni.
2. Answer: No, he does not even acquire half of Ploni.

(l) Support: If he said 'I sell you my field, except for half of field Ploni', does he acquire half of field Ploni?!

1. Surely, he does not; also here, he does not acquire the other half.

(a) Question (Rav Amram): Reuven deposited (something) by Shimon with a document; Shimon claims, 'I returned it to you' - what is the law?

1. Do we say, since Shimon would be believed to claim 'it was lost through Ones', he is believed to say 'I returned it'?
2. Or, since Reuven still has the document, this proves that he did not return it?

(b) Answer (Rav Chisda): Shimon is believed.
(c) Question (Rav Amram): If he returned it, why does Reuven still have the document?

1. Counter-question (Rav Chisda): If Shimon would say 'it was lost through Ones', the document would not disprove this!

2. Question (Rav Amram): Shimon would have to swear (that it was lost through Ones)!
3. Answer (Rav Chisda): I meant, Shimon is believed if he swears (that he returned it).

(d) Suggestion: Rav Amram and Rav Chisda argue as the following Tana'im.

1. (Beraisa - judges of Bavel): If Levi brought a Shtar Kis (document of a business venture) against orphans, he swears (that their father never paid) and collects it all;
2. Judges of Eretz Yisrael say, he swears and collects half.
3. All agree with Chachamim of Neharda'a, that Shtar Kis is half a loan, half a deposit;
4. Suggestion: Judges of Bavel say that since Levi has the document, this proves that he was not paid;

i. Judges of Eretz Yisrael say that their father would be believed to say that the money (or merchandise) was lost through Ones, which would exempt him from paying half (the deposit), therefore he would also be believed to say 'I returned it';
ii. Therefore, we claim on behalf of the orphans, perhaps their father paid half (they swear that they do not know that their father still owed).

(e) Rejection: No, all agree with Rav Chisda (the Migo is believed against the document);

1. Judges of Bavel say that had he paid half, he would have told his children;
2. Judges of Eretz Yisrael say, perhaps he died suddenly and was unable to tell them.

(f) (Huna bar Avin): If Reuven deposited by Shimon with a document, Shimon is believed to say 'I returned it';

1. If Levi brings Shtar Kis against orphans, he swears and collects it all.

(g) Objection: These laws contradict each other!
(h) Answer: No - had the father paid half, he would have told his children.
(i) (Rava): The Halachah is, he swears and collects half.
(j) (Mar Zutra): The Halachah follows the judges of Bavel.

1. Ravina: But Rava said that he only collects half! 2. Mar Zutra: Our text of the Beraisa switches the
opinions, judges of Bavel say that he collects half.