Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) DISCOUNTS FOR PAYING IN ADVANCE

(a) (Beraisa): Reuven was carrying a bundle to a certain place. Shimon offered: 'I will take it and sell it for you; I will use the money, and later return to you according to what it sells for there':

1. If Reuven bears any losses on the way, it is permitted (Rashi - for it is not a loan until he sells it; Tosfos - Reuven must pay Shimon's toil and food);
2. If Shimon bears any losses on the way, it is forbidden.

(b) (Beraisa): Reuven was carrying produce to a certain place. Shimon offered: 'Give them to me (to eat); I will return the same amount to you there':

1. If Reuven has produce there, it is permitted; if not, not.

(c) Donkey-drivers may borrow money on condition to (Rashi - use it and later) return produce according to the lower price in a different city.
(d) Version #1 (Rashi) Question: Why is this allowed? (They work for the buyer without any pay, just use of his money!)
(e) Answer #1 (Rav Papa): The donkey-drivers gain - they become trustworthy in the eyes of sellers in the city where produce is cheap (on other occasions, they will give them on credit).
(f) Version #2 (R. Chananel) Question: Why is this allowed? (Even though they are paid, they bear any loss on the way.)
(g) Answer #1 (Rav Papa): They gain - the buyers tell them where produce is expensive. (end of Version #2)
(h) Answer #2 (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Ika): The sellers give a discount to the donkey-drivers (Rashi - they fear that the donkey-drivers will stop buying from them, since they are not paid).
(i) Question: What is the difference between the answers?
(j) Version #1 (Rashi) Answer: A new donkey-driver. (The sellers start to trust him, but he does not get a discount.)
(k) Version #2 (R. Chananel) Answer: A new lender. (He does not know where the price is expensive, but the donkey-drivers still get a discount from the sellers).
(l) Grain was selling for four (measures for a Zuz) in Sura, and for six in Kafri. Rav gave money (in Sura) to donkey-drivers (to bring from Kafra), he accepted to bear losses on the way. He took from them five measures per Zuz.
(m) Question: He is allowed to take six!
(n) Answer: An important person should not.
(o) Question (R. Asi): May this be done with (other merchandise such as) pieces of metal? (Perhaps the above reasons do not apply, since the donkey-drivers will not frequent the same sellers.)
(p) Version #1 - Answer (R. Yochanan): R. Yishmael b'Rebbi Yosi wanted to do so with linen garments; Rebbi forbade him to.
(q) Version #2 - Answer (R. Yochanan): Rebbi wanted to do so with pieces of metal; R. Yishmael b'Rebbi Yosi forbade him.

(a) (Rav): It is forbidden to give money (when grapes are immature) to receive mature grapes (later) at a low price.
(b) (Shmuel): This is permitted.

1. Rav forbids - since they are worth more later, this resembles usury;
2. Shmuel permits - since the buyer bears losses that may occur to the crop, it does not look like usury.

(c) (Rav Simi bar Chiya): Rav admits regarding oxen.

1. Version #1 (Rashi): In a vineyard harvested using oxen, this is permitted, because the oxen get caught in the vines and losses are common.
2. Version #2 (Tosfos): Rav admits that it is permitted to give money (at a low price) for calves that will be born during the year, since miscarriages are common.
3. Version #3 (Rambam): Rav admits that it is permitted to give money (at a low price) for calves to receive them when they are grown, for they often grow weak or die.

(d) Version #1 (Rashi): There were people that used to lend grain to their sharecroppers (for planting) and receive back (after it grew) new grain.

1. Shmuel: You must help them plow or harvest a bit (so you are entitled to wages) - if not, this is a loan of a Se'ah on condition to return a Se'ah, it is forbidden.

(e) Version #2 (Tosfos): There were people that used to pay in advance to receive a greater value of vines after the harvest.

1. Shmuel: You must make an acquisition in the land now (to acquire the vines) - if not, this is a loan, it is forbidden (since loss is not common).

(f) People that guard standing crops used to be paid after the grain was harvested and threshed; they received extra on account of the delay.

1. Rava: (This is usury) - you must help a bit at the granary, in order that your work continues until then, for then there is no delay in your wages (to attribute the higher wage to it);

i. Wages are only due to be paid at the end of the job.

(g) Rabanan (to Rava): You receive usury!

1. We rent fields for four Korim of grain, which we receive in Nisan - you receive six Korim a month later!

(h) Rava: You act improperly!

1. The land belongs to the renter until the grain fully ripens - you should not make him leave in Nisan!
2. I receive rental when it is due, in Iyar.

(i) Rav Mari bar Rachel took a house as a Mashkanta from a Nochri, who then sold it to Rava. A year later, Rav Mari gave a year's rent to Rava (for the coming year).

1. Rav Mari: Within one year, the Nochri could not have removed me from the field even if he paid the loan; from now onwards, I must pay rent.
2. Rava: Had I known that it was a Mashkanta by you, I would not have bought it; now that I know, I apply to you the law of Nochrim: until he pays you, he does not receive rent - I also will not take rent until I force him to pay you. (This is not usury, for Rava does not owe Rav Mari anything.)

(j) Question (Rava of Barnayish): Rabanan take usury! They pay for wine in Tishrei and take it in Teves, and the seller bears the loss if it sours in between!
(k) Answer (Rav Ashi): If it soured in between, that shows that it was not proper wine from the beginning - they paid for wine, not vinegar.

(a) Question (Ravina): Before the harvest, I give money for wine; I receive an extra measure - is this permitted?
(b) Answer (Rav Ashi): Yes - since there was no stipulation, this is just a gift.

1. Ravina: The sellers do not own the land, they pay the tax for abandoned land and work it - is the wine forbidden because the land was stolen?
2. Rav Ashi: No - the king has rights over the land - he says that whoever pays the land tax, he gets the produce.

(c) Question (Rav Papa): There are Rabanan that pay the head-tax of people, and make them work for them!
(d) Answer (Rava): The king is master over all his subjects - he says that whoever pays another's head-tax may make the person work for him.
(e) Rav Se'oram (Rava's brother) used to grab indecent people and make them pull Rava's rickshaw.

1. Support (Rava - Beraisa): Someone that does not act properly, you may force him to work for you - "L'Olam Bahem Ta'avodu uv'Acheichem" (forever you will work with Kana'ani slaves and with your brothers)";

i. Suggestion: Perhaps this applies even to someone acting properly!
ii. Rejection: "Uv'Acheichem Benei Yisrael (you may not work harshly)."

(a) (Rav Chama): Reuven gave Shimon money to buy wine; he was negligent and did not - he must give him wine as it sells at the major market (cheaply).
(b) (Rav Zvid of Nehardai): That is only if he asked for (unspecified) wine - but if he asked for a specific wine, he just gets back his money - we do not know if they would have agreed to sell to him!
(c) (Rav Ashi): Even if he asked for (unspecified) wine, he just gets back his money.
(d) Question: What is the reason?
(e) Answer: Even if he promised to give his wine if he will not buy, this is only Asmachta, there was no acquisition.
(f) Question: What is the difference between this and the following?

1. (Mishnah): One who rented a field on condition to give a certain amount of (its) produce, and accepted to pay if he will not work the field - this is binding.

(g) Answer: There, he can surely work the field; here, there is no guarantee that they would sell to him.