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Chulin, 116
CHULIN 116 (27 Iyar) - Dedicated by Gitle Bekelnitzky in honor of the
sixth Yahrzeit of her father, Zev ben Ephraim v'Chaya Krause.
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1) A LAW DERIVED FROM TWO SOURCES
QUESTION: The Gemara says that when attempting to derive a Halachah
through a "Meh Matzinu" from two Mitzvos that have this law in common to
another Mitzvah, we can invalidate the attempt through a "Pircha Kol
d'Hu." Even a slight difference between the target Mitzvah and the two
source Mitzvos from which we want to derive the Halachah invalidates the
comparison. In contrast, when a Halachah is derived by comparing *three*
sources, a "Pircha Kol d'Hu" will not suffice to invalidate it, unless we
can challenge the third source from a leniency or stringency and
consequently and must learn the Halachah through a "Tzad ha'Shaveh" (in
which case we can challenge the Limud from anything common to the
sources).
What is the logic behind this distinction? It seems that the opposite
should be true. It would make more sense for a Halachah that is derived
from the combination of only two sources to be stronger than one that
needs to be derived from three sources!
ANSWER: The HALICHOS OLAM (page 24b) explains that as long as there is no
challenge that forces us to learn the Halachah through a "Tzad ha'Shaveh,"
the Halachah we are attempting to derive is really being learned from
*one* source -- the original Kal v'Chomer. The other source are simply
supporting the Kal v'Chomer. Obviously, a Kal v'Chomer that has two
sources of support is better than one that has only one source of support!
(If the derivation is challenged, though, with "Hadar Dina," then the
Halachah is no longer being learned from the Kal v'Chomer but from a weak
"Meh Matzinu" which relies on three sources, and, therefore, a Pircha Kol
d'Hu can invalidate the teaching.) (M. Kornfeld)
2) WHAT PART OF A VINE BECOMES "KIL'AYIM"
QUESTION: Rav Ada bar Ahavah infers that what was initially planted as
Kil'ei ha'Kerem becomes prohibited, even though the tree, vines, or seeds
were originally permitted (as in the case of the Isur of meat and milk).
TOSFOS (DH Ikarin) points out that the Gemara here seems to contradict the
Gemara in Kesuvos (80a). The Gemara here implies that the entire vine,
including the wood, becomes prohibited as Kil'ayim, and not only the
fruit. However, Rav Yehudah in Kesuvos teaches that using the wood of a
vine of Kil'ayim constitutes an act of Chazakah for making a Kinyan on
land. Only a *permitted* use of the field, though, is considered to be a
Chazakah!
ANSWER: TOSFOS answers that there are two separate parts to a vine with
regard to Kil'ayim. Although the fruit of a vine becomes forbidden as
Kil'ayim when it gains more than 1/200th of its original size while
planted with wheat, the branches and twigs of the vine do not become
prohibited until *the branches* (and not just the fruit) gain more than
1/200th of their original size. (Z. Wainstein)
116b
3) MILK SALTED WITH THE STOMACH OF A COW
QUESTION: The Mishnah teaches that if one places milk into the hide of the
Keivah (abomasum) of a Kosher animal in order for the milk to curdle, the
cheese that is produced is permitted unless it absorbs the taste of the
meat.
RASHI (DH Harei) writes that it seems to him that a stomach that was
salted with milk inside, whether the milk was placed in the stomach by a
person or whether the milk was found in the stomach, is absolutely
forbidden, because the salting makes the stomach and milk absorb the taste
of each other. Rashi writes that if the forbidden milk later mixes with
other milk used for making cheese, it is a mixture of Min b'Mino. Since we
rule like Rebbi Yehudah (Pesachim 29b) who maintains that a mixture of Min
b'Mino is prohibited even when there is a very small amount of Isur
present, it follows that the mixture of milk is forbidden.
Rashi's application of Rebbi Yehudah's opinion to a case of milk salted
with the stomach implies that Rebbi Yehudah maintains that even an Isur
d'Rabanan is not Batel in a mixture of Min b'Mino. Is this indeed the view
of Rashi?
ANSWER: The SHA'AR HA'MELECH (Hilchos Ma'achalos Asuros 15:6, DH v'Od)
adduces proof from here that according to Rashi, who maintains that the
Halachah follows Rebbi Yehudah, Min b'Mino is not Batel even when the Isur
is only mid'Rabanan. Rashi writes that the Halachah follows Rebbi Yehudah
here even though the milk in the stomach of the cow is "Chalav Shechutah,"
the milk that comes out of an animal after it has been slaughtered. The
Gemara earlier (113b) teaches that the verse, "... in the milk of its
mother" (Shemos 23:19), excludes the milk of a slaughtered animal.
However, such milk is Asur mid'Rabanan (111a).
The Sha'ar ha'Melech writes that even though the Gemara earlier (99b, as
mentioned by the GILYON HA'SHAS here; see also Insights there) says that
according to Rebbi Yehudah the forbidden brine of a non-Kosher fish is
Batel in permitted brine, this does not mean that every Isur d'Rabanan is
Batel even according to Rebbi Yehudah. Rather, one must say that the
prohibition of fish brine is less severe than other Isurei d'Rabanan, as
the Gemara states there that it is merely "Zei'ah."
The RASHASH disagrees with the Sha'ar ha'Melech's assertion that the milk
found in the stomach of the cow is Chalav Shechutah. He states that since
the milk now in the stomach left the udder of the mother when she was
still alive, it is not considered Chalav Shechutah, because the fact that
the milk is collected in the stomach is equivalent to it having been
collected in a dish before the mother died. Rashi himself later states
this explicitly when he explains that the reason why the Gemara in Avodah
Zarah (29b) permits the milk in the stomach of a Korban Olah is because it
is not considered part of the mother, but rather it is "collected in her
stomach as if it was collected in a dish."
This distinction is expressed by the Gemara itself (109b) when it says
that milk in the stomach is considered as having been collected in its
insides, in contrast to milk in the udder. Rashi (DH Zeh Kanus) writes
that as soon as the milk leaves the udder of the animal, it is considered
to be "milk," whereas before it leaves the udder it is not considered
milk. Therefore, the milk in the udder is Chalav Shechutah, while the milk
in the stomach will be forbidden mid'Oraisa if cooked with the stomach.
However, the Rashash states that the Sha'ar ha'Melech's ruling -- that,
according to Rashi, the Halachah that Min b'Mino is not Batel even in a
thousand times more of Heter applies also to Isurei d'Rabanan -- is
correct but for a different reason. Since the milk was salted with the
stomach it is only Asur mid'Rabanan, because milk and meat are forbidden
mid'Oraisa only when they are actually cooked together (see above 108a,
"Derech Bishul Torah"). Since Rashi is discussing an Isur d'Rabanan, we
see that Rebbi Yehudah's ruling applies even in such a case. (D. Bloom)
4) HALACHAH: A STOMACH THAT WAS SALTED WITH ITS MILK
OPINIONS: The Mishnah teaches that if one places milk into the hide of the
Keivah (abomasum) of a Kosher animal in order for the milk to curdle, the
cheese that is produced is permitted unless it absorbs the taste of the
meat.
This implies that the same Halachah applies in a case in which congealed
milk was found in the animal's stomach after the flesh was salted. The
salting process is considered like cooking, and thus the milk and flesh of
the stomach should be forbidden, since they were salted together. Is this
indeed the Halachah?
(a) RASHI (DH Harei) rules that when a stomach was salted together with
the milk found inside it, the stomach (and milk) are forbidden because of
the mixture of meat and milk.
(b) TOSFOS (DH Hachi) cites RABEINU TAM who says that the status of the
stomach depends on the density of the milk that was found inside it. If
the milk is liquidy and clear, then it has the status of milk. If it is
congealed, then it is viewed as a waste product and it does not prohibit
the meat with which it was salted.
(c) The RAMBAM (Hilchos Ma'achalos Asuros 9:15) rules that even when a
stomach is *cooked* with the milk that was found inside it, it is
permitted. Once the milk enters the digestive system, it is considered to
be waste and not milk. The Rambam's words imply that even liquidy, clear
milk found in the stomach of the animal is considered waste and may be
cooked with meat. (Z. Wainstein)
HALACHAH: The BEIS YOSEF (end of YD 87) rules like the Rambam that milk in
the stomach is not considered milk, and therefore it does not become
forbidden when salted with the stomach. Accordingly, in the SHULCHAN ARUCH
(YD 87:10) he writes only that it is prohibited to make cheese with such
"milk," since the "milk" absorbed the taste of the stomach. The "milk"
itself, though, is not forbidden.
5) CHEESE MADE IN THE "KEIVAH" OF A NON-KOSHER ANIMAL
QUESTION: The Mishnah teaches that if one places milk into the hide of the
Keivah (abomasum) of a Kosher animal in order for the milk to curdle, the
cheese that is produced is permitted unless it absorbs the taste of the
meat.
The Gemara in Avodah Zarah (35a, and as quoted by the Gemara here)
explains that the cheese of a Nochri may not be eaten, because it is made
in the stom ach of a non-Kosher animal.
What difference does it make that the cheese was made in the stomach of a
non-Kosher animal? In both cases, it should depend on whether or not the
cheese absorbed the taste of the meat! If it absorbed the taste of the
meat, then in both cases it should be prohibited, while if it did not
absorb the taste of the meat, it should be permitted!
ANSWERS:
(a) TOSFOS (116a, DH ha'Ma'amid) explains that there is a difference
between cheese made in the stomach of a Kosher animal and cheese made in
the stomach of a non-Kosher animal. Cheese made in the stomach of a Kosher
animal is forbidden only mid'Rabanan, because the stomach and the milk
were not actually cooked together. Cheese made in the stomach of a
non-Kosher animal, in contrast, is not Asur merely because of an Isur
d'Rabanan of meat and milk, but it is Asur because of an Isur d'Oraisa of
non-Kosher meat.
(b) The RAMBAM (Hilchos Ma'achalos Asuros 9:16) answers that there is a
fundamental difference between the Isur of meat and milk and all other
prohibitions (such as the Isur of non-Kosher meat). When a prohibited food
is used as a Ma'amid for other food, the taste of the prohibited food does
not become Batel b'Shishim. This is why the cheese of Nochrim is
prohibited even though the taste of non-Kosher meat is not discernible in
them. However, when cheese is made in the stomach of a Kosher animal,
since the meat by itself is not a prohibited food it will only prohibit
the cheese if the taste of meat is discernible. (Z. Wainstein)
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