POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
Ask A Question on the daf
Previous daf Chulin 17
1) SLAUGHTER OF "CHULIN"
(a) Answer #2 (Rav Yosef): The Mishnah is like R. Akiva.
2) UNUSEABLE KNIVES
1. (Beraisa - R. Akiva): "When you will be far from
(the Mikdash) and you will slaughter your cattle and
flock" - the verse comes to forbid Nechirah (an
animal killed by tearing from the nostrils).
(b) Question: What do R. Akiva and R. Yishmael argue about?
2. In the Midbar, Nechirah was permitted; when Yisrael
entered Eretz Yisrael, it was forbidden.
i. One might have thought, in exile, it is
permitted again - the Mishnah teaches, this is
not so, we must always slaughter.
(c) Answer: R. Akiva holds, Chulin was never forbidden; R.
Yishmael holds, Nechirah was never permitted.
(d) According to R. Yishmael we understand "Could enough
flock and cattle be slaughtered for them?";
1. Question: According to R. Akiva, why does it say
"slaughtered" - it should say, 'Yinacher'!
(e) According to R. Yishmael we understand the following
2. Answer: Since Nechirah was permitted, it was like
1. (Mishnah): If the animal became a Neveilah during
the slaughter, or if one did Nechirah or uprooted
the Simanim, he is exempt from covering the blood.
(f) According to R. Akiva, who says that slaughter was never
forbidden, we understand "As you (now) eat deer and wild
goat, so (in Eretz Yisrael) you will eat (Korbanos that
2. Question: According to R. Akiva, why is he exempt
(since Nechirah was considered slaughter, just we
may not eat it today)?
3. Answer: Once it became forbidden, it is no longer
1. Question: According to R. Yishmael, deer and wild
goat (cannot be Korbanos, they) were also forbidden
in the Midbar!
(g) Question (R. Yirmeyah): (According to R. Akiva), if
Yisrael brought limbs (of animals killed by Nechirah)
into Eretz Yisrael, were they permitted?
2. Answer: The Torah only forbade Behemos (cattle and
flock), which could be brought as Korbanos; wild
animals (Chayos) were permitted.
1. Question: About when does he ask?
(h) This question is unresolved.
i. Suggestion: If during the seven years of
conquest - even Tamei animals were permitted,
all the more so meat of Nechirah!
2. Answer #1: He asks about after the seven years.
ii. (R. Yirmeyah bar Aba): "Houses full of all
good" - even pork was permitted.
3. Answer #2: He asks about during the seven years -
the Torah only permitted the spoils of the
Kanani'im, not forbidden things belonging to
(i) Objection (Rava): We explained the first two statements
of the Mishnah - 'All slaughter, we always slaughter' -
how do we explain the third, 'With all we slaughter'?
1. Suggestion: Perhaps it comes to include a rock,
glass or reed.
(j) Answer (Rava): Rather, 'All slaughter' (was taught in the
first Mishnah (2A) and also in the Mishnah (15B)) - one
of these includes a Kusi, the other a Yisrael Mumar;
2. Rejection: It should resemble the first two - if the
first two discuss who may slaughter, the third
should also; if they speak of what is slaughtered,
the third should also.
1. 'We always slaughter' - by night or day, on the roof
or at the head of a ship;
2. 'With all we slaughter' - even with a rock, glass or
(a) (Mishnah): Except for a reaping scythe or saw.
(b) Shmuel's father repeatedly sent blemished knives to Eretz
Yisrael, asking which invalidate a slaughter. They
responded - the Mishnah says, a saw (or knives with
similar nicks) invalidates slaughter.
(c) (Beraisa): A knife that has many nicks is like a saw; if
it has only one nick - if Ogeres, it is invalid; if
Mesuchseches, it is valid.
3) CHECK ING THE KNIFE
(d) Question: What are Ogeres and Mesuchseches?
(e) Answer (R. Elazar): Ogeres is a nick with catches on both
sides; Mesuchseches, on only one side.
(f) Question: Why is there a difference?
1. If there are catches on both sides - the first catch
tears the flesh, the second tears the Siman (Kaneh
(g) Answer #1: The nick is at the end of the knife.
2. Even if there is only one catch - the pressure of
the knife tears the flesh, the catch tears the
(h) Objection: Still, when he slides the knife away from
himself (while cutting), this tears the flesh; when he
returns the knife, this tears the Siman!
(i) Answer #2: He only moves the knife away, he does not
(j) (Rava): There are three laws of knives: if it has an
one-sided nick - he may not slaughter with it, if he did,
the slaughter is invalid;
1. If it has a two-sided nick - he may not slaughter
with it, if he did, the slaughter is valid;
(k) Rav Huna brei d'Rav Nechemyah (to Rav Ashi): You said
that Rava said that a two-sided nick disqualifies the
slaughter - here, he says that it is Kosher!
2. If the blade goes up and down (but there are no
nicks) - l'Chatchilah, he may slaughter with it.
(l) Answer (Rav Ashi): If he only moved the knife away, the
slaughter is Kosher; if he also returned the knife, it is
(m) Question (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Avya): If the knife is like
the beard of an ear of grain (not smooth, but without
nicks) - what is the law?
(n) Answer (Rav Ashi): I would gladly eat from the meat.
(a) (Rav Chisda): "You will slaughter with this" - this
teaches that a slaughter knife must be checked.
(b) Question: Why must we learn from a verse? A nick in the
knife disqualifies the slaughter, of course we must check
(c) Answer: The verse teaches that a Chacham must check the
(d) Question: But R. Yochanan taught, the enactment that the
Chacham checks the knife was made only to honor the
(e) Answer: Rav Chisda gives an Asmachta for a Rabbinic law.
(f) In Eretz Yisrael they check the knife in the sun
(alternatively - they look at its shadow); in Nehardai,
they move it through water (a nick would cause ripples);
Rav Sheshes checks it with the tip of his tongue; Rav
Acha bar Yakov checks it with a hair;
1. (Chachamim of Sura): Since the knife cuts flesh, it
must be checked with flesh (the finger or tongue).
(g) (Rav Papa): The knife must be checked with the finger and
fingernail, and on three sides (the surface of the blade
and the sides of the blade).
(h) Ravina: I heard you (Rav Ashi) quote Rava to say that the
knife must be checked with the finger and fingernail, and
on three sides.
(i) Version #1 - Rav Ashi: I said, it must be checked with
the finger and fingernail; I did not say it must be
checked on three sides.
(j) Version #2 - Rav Ashi: I said, it must be checked with
the finger and fingernail, and on three sides, but I did
not say this in Rava's name.
(k) Rav Acha brei d'Rava checked a knife with his finger and
fingernail and on three sides; Rav Ashi approved, Rav
Kahana also agrees.
(l) (Rav Yemar): It must be checked with the finger and
fingernail; it need not be checked on three sides - we
learn from R. Zeira.
1. (R. Zeira): Slaughter with a glowing hot knife it
Kosher, for the blade cuts before burning through
(m) (Rav Huna bar Rav Ketina): Three things have the same
intolerance for nicks:
2. Question: But it burns the Simanim on the sides (of
the blade, as it cuts)!
3. Answer: As the Simanim are cut, the sides of the cut
separate from each other (so the blade does not
i. Also regarding a cold knife - even if it has a
nick on the side, it will not touch the
1. The prohibition of breaking a bone of the Korban
(n) (Rav Chisda): To this list we may add a nick on a knife
2. A nick in the ear (or other parts) of a firstborn
animal (such a Mum disqualifies it from being
offered as a Korban, and allows the Kohen to eat it
3. A Mum in (the Ervah of) a (female) animal.
1. Rav Huna only listed Kodshim matters.
(o) The tolerance for all of these is the same as for a nick
on the Mizbe'ach.