POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
Ask A Question on the daf
Previous daf Chulin 57
CHULIN 57-58 - sponsored by Dr. Lindsay A. Rosenwald of Lawrence NY, in
honor of his father, David ben Aharon ha'Levy Rosenwald of blessed memory.
1) "TRIEFOS" OF THE LEGS
(a) (Mishnah): The legs were cut...
(b) Birds with cut legs were brought before Rava; he checked
that the sinews were intact at the juncture of the
sinews, and ruled that they are Kosher.
(c) (Rav Yehudah citing Rav): If the foreleg of an animal
became detached, it is Kosher; regarding a bird, it is
(d) If the wings of a bird became detached, it is Tereifah -
we are concerned, perhaps the lung was punctured.
(e) (Shmuel and R. Yochanan): We check the lungs; if they
were not punctured, it is Kosher.
1. (Chizkiyah): Birds don't have lungs.
(f) (Rav Huna citing Rav): If the leg of a bird became
detached, it is Kosher.
2. R. Yochanan: They have lungs - they are the size of
a rose leaf, they are between the wings.
3. Question: What does Chizkiyah mean, 'they don't have
i. He cannot mean that they don't have lungs at
all - we see that they do!
4. Answer #1: Rather, they have lungs, but defects in
the lungs do not make a bird Tereifah.
5. Rejection: But Levi taught, any defect that is
Tereifah in an animal is Tereifah in a bird
(including punctured lungs!);
i. If the skull is broken and the membrane is
intact, this is Tereifah only in birds.
6. Answer #2: A bird does not become Tereifah through
an injury to the lungs on account of falling or
7. Rejection: Since R. Yochanan countered 'They have
lungs - they are the size of a rose leaf, they are
between the wings', we infer that Chizkiyah holds
that they have no lungs at all!
8. Answer #3 (R. Yosi bar Chanina): Indeed, he meant
that they have no lungs at all - Chizkiyah was not
familiar with birds.
(g) Question (Rabah bar Rav Huna): But Chachamim of Pumbadisa
say that Rav Yehudah cites Rav to say that it is
(h) Answer (Rav Huna): Different areas hold differently. (In
Pumbadisa, they hold that this is Tereifah, therefore Rav
did not want to permit this in front of them; this caused
Rav Yehudah to think that Rav himself holds that it is
(i) R. Yirmeyah bar Aba was checking the juncture of the
sinews of birds.
1. R. Aba: Why bother - Rav Huna cited Rav to say that
if the leg of a bird became detached, it is Kosher!
(j) (R. Zeira citing Rav Huna citing Rav): If the leg of a
bird became detached, it is Tereifah.
2. R. Yirmeyah: A Mishnah teaches, if an animal's
(hind) leg was cut below the knee, it is Kosher; if
it was cut above the knee, or if the juncture of the
sinews was removed, it is Tereifah;
i. Rav said, the same applies to birds.
3. R. Aba: This contradicts what Rav Huna said in Rav's
i. R. Yirmeyah had no answer.
4. R. Aba: Perhaps cutting is Tereifah, but not if it
5. R. Yirmeyah: Rav explicitly said this!
i. We sometimes find that cutting in one place
makes an animal Tereifah, but cutting away more
(k) R. Aba: After you came to Eretz Yisrael, we explicitly
heard Rav Huna cite Rav to say that it is Kosher!
2) DEFECTS THAT IMPROVED
1. Also, when I debated with R. Yirmeyah, he ultimately
agreed with this, that Rav explicitly was Machshir!
(l) R. Zeira: R. Chiya bar Aba cited Rav to say that it is
2. What is your source that it is Tereifah?
(m) (R. Yakov bar Idi citing R. Yochanan): It is Tereifah.
(n) (R. Yakov bar Idi): Had R. Yochanan been present when
Rebbi and R. Chanina permitted this, he would not have
shown any trace of dissent.
1. (R. Chanina citing Rebbi): If a bird's leg became
detached, it is Kosher.
(o) The Halachah does not follow these lenient opinions,
rather it is like R. Yehoshua ben Levi.
2. R. Chanina had such a bird, and Rebbi permitted it;
R. Chanina preserved it and was constantly showing
it to Talmidim.
1. Question (R. Yosi ben Nehurai): What size hole in
the Kaneh is Tereifah?
2. Answer (R. Yehoshua ben Levi - Mishnah): The size of
an Italian Isar is Tereifah.
3. Question (R. Yosi): But there was a sheep that had a
hole in its Kaneh; they sealed it, and it healed!
i. Counter-question (R. Yehoshua ben Levi): This
is no proof! The Halachah is established
throughout Yisrael that a detached leg is
Tereifah, yet R. Shimon ben Chalifta's chicken
leg came off; they covered it with a reed, and
4. Answer: Also the sheep did not survive a year!
ii. Answer: You must say, even though it healed,
the chicken did not live a year;
(a) R. Shimon ben Chalifta tried to get R. Yehudah to retract
his opinion that a bird missing the small feathers is
1. R. Shimon had a chicken whose small feathers had
fallen out. He put it in an oven and put a garment
over it; it grew more feathers than it had to start
(b) "Lazy one, observe the ant and grow wise, it has no ruler
or king" - R. Shimon ben Chalifta sought to verify this.
2. Question: Perhaps R. Yehudah holds that a Tereifah
sometimes shows signs of improvement!
3. Answer: It will not show improvement regarding the
defect that is Tereifah.
1. In summer, he made shade over an anthill. An ant
came out; R. Shimon made a mark on the ant. It went
back to inform the other ants of the shade (ants
enjoy shade); R. Shimon removed the shade.
(c) (Rav Huna): If an injured animal survives 12 months, this
shows that it was not Tereifah.
2. The other ants came out, and the sun beat upon them;
they killed the marked ant.
3. R. Shimon: This shows that they have no king - if
they had a king, they would not do this.
4. Objections (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): Perhaps the king
was with them when they killed it! Or, perhaps they
were fulfilling the king's decree (to kill liars)!
Or, perhaps the previous king died, and they had not
yet appointed the next king!
i. We know that they have no king only from the
(d) Question (Beraisa): A sign of Tereifos is that the animal
cannot bear children;
1. R. Shimon ben Gamliel says, if it improves, it is
Kosher; if it gets worse, it is Tereifah;
(e) Answer: Rav Huna holds like the following Tana.
2. Rebbi says, if it lives 30 days, this shows that it
3. Chachamim: But many Tereifos survive two or three
1. (Beraisa): If there is a long hole in the skull, or
many small holes that add up to the area of a drill
(it is Tereifah);
(f) (Rav Acha bar Yakov): The Halachah is, a Tereifah can
give birth and improve.
2. R. Yosi ben ha'Meshulam says, there was a case of a
man whose skull was pierced; they covered over it
with a gourd, and he lived.
3. R. Shimon ben Elazar: That is no proof - he was hurt
in summer, and died that winter!