POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Previous daf Chulin 85
CHULIN 85 (26 Nissan) - dedicated by Mr. Avi Berger (of Queens, N.Y.) in
memory of his mother, Leah bas Michel Mordechai, on the day of her
1) WHO HAS THE MITZVAH OF "SHOFAR"?
(e) (Beraisa - Chachamim): Teki'as Shofar in the Gevulim
disproves this - we do not blow on Shabbos even for a
Vadai (definite) Mitzvah, but we do blow on Yom Tov for a
2) SLAUGHTER THAT DOES NOT PERMIT THE MEAT
1. Question: What is the case of a Safek Mitzvah of
(f) Question (Ravina): Even though Chachamim forbid women to
sound a Shofar on Yom Tov, their question is invalid!
i. Suggestion: We are not sure which day is
(mid'Oraisa) Rosh Hashanah.
2. Answer: Rather, the Safek is a Tumtum (Safek male,
perhaps (s)he is a female, and exempt )
ii. Rejection: Teki'as Shofar overrides Vadai Yom
Tov - all the more so, it overrides Safek Yom
3. According to R. Yosi, this is not a question, for he
permits Teki'as Shofar (and all other time-bound
Mitzvos) to women:
i. (Beraisa): Benei Yisrael do Semichah (to press
on the neck of a Korban), Benos Yisrael do not;
ii. R. Yosi and R. Shimon say, Benos Yisrael may do
Semichah if they want.
1. Teki'as Shofar overrides Shabbos in the Mikdash
(therefore, a Safek case overrides Yom Tov) - we
cannot learn to Kisuy ha'Dam, for this never
(g) Beraisa (R. Elazar ha'Hakapar Beribi): Circumcise does
not apply on Yom Tov night...
(h) Question: This implies that circumcision applies on other
(i) Correction: Rather, R. Elazar asks, circumcision applies
only during the day, but Kisuy is also at night, so one
cannot learn from circumcision!
1. (R. Aba): R. Chiya had no question against R. Yosi's
Kal va'Chomer, until he heard R. Elazar ha'Hakapar's
(a) (Mishnah - R. Meir): The Mitzvah to cover the blood
applies even in the following cases:
1. The animal was found to be Treifah; it was
slaughtered for idolatry; Chulin b'Azarah (Chulin
slaughtered in the Mikdash); Shechutei Chutz; the
animal had been sentenced to be stoned (e.g. for
killing a person);
(b) Chachamim say, there is no Mitzvah in these cases.
(c) Kisuy does not apply if the animal became a Nevelah, or
if Nechirah or Akirah was done (the Simanim were torn or
uprooted, not slaughtered.)
(d) (Gemara - R. Chiya bar Aba): Regarding Oso v'Es Beno,
Rebbi holds like R. Meir (that slaughter that does not
permit the meat is considered slaughter), therefore the
Mishnah attributes this opinion to 'Chachamim';
1. Regarding Kisuy ha'Dam, Rebbi holds like R. Shimon
(that invalid slaughter is not considered
slaughter), therefore the Mishnah attributes this
opinion to 'Chachamim'.
(e) Question: What is R. Meir's reason regarding Oso v'Es
(f) Answer (R. Yehoshua ben Levi): He learns a Gezerah Shavah
"Shechitah-Shechitah" from Shechutei Chutz - just like
there, it is considered slaughter (even though the animal
is forbidden), also regarding Oso v'Es Beno.
(g) Question: What is R. Shimon's reason regarding Oso v'Es
(h) Answer (R. Mani bar Patish): He learns a Gezerah Shavah
from "Tavo'ach Tevach" (written concerning the meal
prepared for Yosef's brothers) - Kisuy applies only for
such a slaughter, i.e. one that permits the meat.
(i) Question: Why does R. Meir argue?
(j) Answer: (Regarding Oso v'Es Beno it says "Sishchatu" -)
it is better to learn from (another form of) the same
word, not from a different word ('Tevichah'.)
(k) Question: But a Gezerah Shavah may be learned from a
1. (Beraisa - Tana d'Vei R. Yishmael): "V'Shav ha'Kohen
u'Va ha'Kohen" - this Gezerah Shavah teaches that
the law (of a house with Tzara'as) when the Kohen
(first) returns is the same like when he comes
(another week later.)
(l) Answer: A Gezerah Shavah may be learned from a different
word only if it cannot be learned from the same word -
here, it can be learned from the same word.
(m) Question: Why doesn't R. Shimon learn like R. Meir, from
(n) Answer: It is better to learn Chulin from Chulin than
1. R. Meir argues, because Oso v'Es Beno also applies
(o) Question: Why is R. Meir's reason regarding Kisuy ha'Dam?
2. This is why Rebbi holds like R. Meir regarding Oso
(p) Answer (Reish Lakish): He learns a Gezerah Shavah
"Shefichah-Shefichah" from Shechutei Chutz - just like
there, it is considered slaughter (even though the animal
is forbidden), also regarding Kisuy.
1. R. Shimon argues, because it says "That will be
2. R. Meir says, this teaches that Kisuy does not apply
to Tamei birds.
3. R. Shimon counters, just like "That will be eaten"
excludes Tamei birds, it also excludes Treifah birds
(and all other invalid slaughters)!
4. This is why Rebbi holds like R. Shimon regarding
3) WHERE R. MEIR AND R. SHIMON AGREE
(a) (R. Aba): R. Meir agrees that an invalid slaughter does
not permit the meat; R. Shimon agrees that an invalid
slaughter is Metaher (from Tum'as Nevelah.)
4) SLAUGHTER FOR THE SAKE OF THE BLOOD
(b) Question: Obviously, slaughter of a Treifah does not
permit the meat!
(c) Answer: R. Aba must teach that slaughter of a Treifah
does not permit a living nine-month (i.e. viable) fetus
1. One might have thought, since R. Meir considers
Pasul slaughter to be slaughter, it permits the
fetus - R. Aba teaches, this is not so.
(d) Question: But R. Meir requires slaughter even for a Ben
Paku'ah (found inside a Kosher slaughtered mother!)
(e) Answer: Indeed, the law is obvious according to R. Meir;
R. Aba teaches that Rebbi admits in this case.
1. Rebbi considers Pasul slaughter to be slaughter,
like R. Meir; he holds like Chachamim that Kosher
slaughter is Metaher (and permits) a Ben Paku'ah
(f) (R. Aba): R. Shimon admits, Pasul slaughter is Metaher
from Tum'as Neveilah.
2. One might have thought, slaughter of the mother
permits the child, even if the mother is Treifah -
R. Aba teaches, this is not so.
(g) Question: This is obvious!
1. (Rav Yehudah): "When will die *from* an animal" -
some animals convey Tum'ah (as a Nevelah), others do
(h) Answer: R. Aba must teach about a Chulin Treifah
slaughtered in the Mikdash.
2. A slaughtered Treifah does not convey Tum'ah.
1. (Beraisa - R. Shimon): If a Chulin Treifah was
slaughtered in the Mikdash, it is permitted to
benefit from the carcass;
(i) Question (Rav Papa): May we infer that R. Shimon forbids
Chulin b'Azarah mid'Oraisa?
2. Chachamim say, it is forbidden.
3. One might have thought, since Chachamim permit
benefit from the carcass, it is as if it was not
slaughtered at all - R. Aba teaches, this is not so.
(j) Answer (Abaye): Yes!
1. (Mishnah - R. Shimon): Chulin b'Azarah Behemos must
be burned; the same applies to Chayos.
i. If a Behemah becomes forbidden mid'Oraisa it is
reasonable to decree the same for a Chayah.
(Rashi - really, a Chayah also becomes
ii. But if a Chulin Behemah is forbidden only
mid'Rabanan, this would be a decree, lest
people will eat Kodshim outside;
iii. It is unreasonable to forbid a Chayah (on
account of a Behemah), that is a decree on
account of a decree!
(a) A moth fell into R. Chiya's flax (which was soaking in
water); he wanted to chase it out with blood; Rebbi told
him to slaughter a bird over the water.
(b) Question (Beraisa): If one slaughters (a bird or Chayah)
only for the sake of the blood, he must cover the blood;
1. The only solution is to do Nechirah or Akirah
(instead of slaughter.)
(c) Version #1 (Rav Dimi): Rebbi told him to make the bird a
Treifah before slaughtering it.
(d) Version #2 (Rav Dimi): Rebbi told him to do Nechirah.
(e) Question: According to Version #1, why didn't he say to
1. Suggestion: Rebbi holds that the Torah does not
require slaughter of birds, Nechirah suffices (so
Nechirah also obligates Kisuy!)
(f) Answer: Rebbi taught a bigger Chidush:
2. Rejection (Beraisa - Rebbi): "As I commanded you" -
this teaches that Moshe received laws of
slaughtering the Veshet, the Kaneh, the majority of
one Siman of a bird, the majority of both Simanim of
1. One might have thought, Nechirah is exempt from
Kisuy ha'Dam, for it is not slaughter, but one must
cover the blood of a slaughtered Treifah - he
teaches that this is not so;
2. This is like R. Chiya bar Aba (regarding Kisuy,
Rebbi holds like R. Shimon, that invalid slaughter
is not considered slaughter.)