ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Chulin 19
CHULIN 19-20 - Two weeks of study material have been dedicated by Mrs.
Estanne Abraham Fawer to honor the fourth Yahrzeit of her father, Reb
Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Weiner), who passed away 18 Teves 5760. May the
merit of supporting and advancing Talmud study during the week of his
Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.
(a) When Rav Nachman validated 'Shiyer be'Chiti' up to the Shipuy Kova, Rav
Chanan bar Ketina objected - on the grounds that this concurred neither with
the opinion of the Chachamim, nor with that of Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah.
(b) Rav Nachman replied that he knew nothing about 'Chilak' or 'Bilak',
which we initially interpreted to mean - 'dividing the Si'man into two'
(like the Rabbanan), and 'tearing it into pieces' (like Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi
(c) Based on a Sugya in Cheilek, however, we reject that explanation.
There - they appear to be names of people.
(d) Rav Nachman bases his ruling on a statement in the name of Rebbi
Yochanan (Rebbi Chanina or Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi), who said - 'mi'Shipuy
Kova u'Lematah, Kesheirah'.
(a) Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi states that the Mugremes of ...
1. ... the Rabbanan - is Kasher according to Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah.
(b) Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi's second statement is not obvious - because,
when in the Beraisa, we learned 'He'id Rebbi Chanina ben Antignos al
Mugremes she'Hi Kesheirah' we might have thought that he was referring to
the Mugremes of the Rabbanan (where one completes the Shechitah outside the
Taba'as ha'Gedolah), but not to that of Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah (where
one Shechts most of it, or even all of it, beyond the Taba'as ha'Gedolah).
2. ... Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah - is Kasher according to Rebbi Chanina
(c) We know that Rebbi Chanina ben Antignos is not indeed referring to the
statement of the Rabbanan ('u'Mugremes Pesulah') that precedes it - because
if he had been, the Tana would have said 'He'id ... *Alehah* she'Hi
(d) We rule like Rebbi Chanina ben Antignos - because Rav Nachman holds like
(a) Rav Huna Amar Rav Asi confines the Machlokes between Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi
Yehudah and the Rabbanan to where the Shochet Shechted two thirds inside the
Taba'as ha'Gedolah, and one third outside, and they argue over - whether
the entire Shechitah needs to take place inside the Taba'os (the Rabbanan),
or only up to the point where the animal dies (a fraction beyond halfway
[Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah]).
(b) And Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah will concede that the Shechitah is
Pasul - in the reverse case (where the Shochet Shechted the first third
beyond the Taba'as ha'Gedolah, and two thirds inside [since the majority of
the Shechitah up to the time that the animal died, did not take place inside
(c) Rav Chisda asked Rav Huna why he did not learn the other way round -
meaning that, in the previous case (where the Shochet Shechted the first
third beyond the Taba'as ha'Gedolah, and two thirds inside) - Rebbi Yossi
be'Rebbi Yehudah will declare the Shechitah Kasher, and the Rabbanan, Pasul.
(d) The Rabbanan will concede however, in the previous case (where the
Shochet first Shechted two thirds inside the Taba'as, and one third,
outside) - that the Shechitah is Kasher.
(a) In the current version of the Machlokes, Rebbi Yossi be'Rebbi Yehudah
learns his ruling from 'Chatzi Kanah Pagum' - where the majority of the
Kanah is not Shechted, yet the Shechitah is Kasher (because the animal's
life left it at the time that the animal was being Shechted), so too here.
(b) Nevertheless, Shechting the difference between a third and the majority
will not suffice (like in the case of 'Chatzi Kanah Pagum', where the broken
half-Si'man combines to the Mashehu Shechitah) - because the Shechitah that
took place outside the location of the Makom Shechitah cannot combine with
the remainder of the Shechitah, to render it Kasher.
(c) The Rabbanan however maintain - that 'Chatzi Kanah Pagum' is different,
inasmuch as the P'gam is in the location of the Shechitah (in which case the
entire life of the animal was taken from it in the location of Shechitah),
whereas Hagramah takes place outside the location of Shechitah (in which
case the majority of the animal's life is taken from it outside the location
(a) Rav Chisda proves from the Mishnah in Perek ha'Shochet 'Rubo shel Echad
Kamohu' - that even the Rabbanan agree that the Shechitah is Kasher, as long
as the Shochet first Shechted the majority of the Kanah.
(b) Rav Yosef refutes ...
1. ... this proof however - by establishing the Mishnah like Rebbi Yossi
b'Rebbi Yehudah (who holds 'Rubo ke'Kulo').
(c) According to Rav Yosef, when the Rabbanan in our Mishnah say 'M'lo
ha'Chut al P'nei Kulah' - they come to preclude (not where one Shechted the
last third outside the Taba'as, but) where one Shechted the first third.
2. ... Abaye, who asks whether the author of every Rov in Shas is Rebbi
Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah - by drawing a distinction between a Rov by Shechitah
(where Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah specifically argues with the Rabbanan
regarding Rov), and other areas of Halachah, where this is not the case, and
which presumably, go according to the Rabbanan too.
(a) In the second Lashon, Rav Huna Amar Rav Asi establishes the Machlokes
when the Shochet Shechted the first third outside the Taba'as ha'Gedolah,
and the remainder within it, as Rav Chisda learned in the first Lashon. And
Rav Chisda now refutes Rav Huna's proof from the Mishnah 'Rubo shel Echad
Kamohu' - by establishing the author as Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah.
(b) In a case where the Shochet first Shechted a third outside the Makom
Shechitah, a third inside, and the last third outside again, Rav Huna Amar
Rav declares it Kasher - because the life of the animal was removed whilst
it was being Shechted.
(c) The current dispute between Rav Huna and Rav Yehudah goes specifically
according to Rebbi Chanina ben Antignos (regarding going beyond the Shipuy
Kova) whereas his previous ruling, where he disqualified the Shechitah even
where the Shochet Shechted one third outside the Makom Shechitah and two
thirds inside (see also Tosfos DH 'Higrim Sh'lish').
(d) Rav Yehudah Amar Rav - declares it Tereifah because a majority of the
Shechitah must be Kasher for the animal to be Kasher.
(e) In the reverse case (where one Shechted a third inside, a third outside
and a third inside) - Rav Yehudah Amar Rav ruled that the Shechitah was
Kasher (because the majority of the Shechitah was Kasher [despite the fact
that the animal was not being Shechted at the time when it died]).
(a) Regarding the current case, Rav Huna made Rav Yehudah angry - by ruling
against him, and declaring the animal Tereifah.
(b) Rav Huna's response was - to concede that Rav Yehudah was right. Besides
the fact that the majority of the Shechitah was Kasher, he justified Rav
Yehudah's anger' by - admitting that whereas Rav Yehudah had cited Rav, he
ruled off his own bat.
(c) Rav Chisda however, advised Rav Huna not to retract, because if he did -
he would stand to lose his previous ruling too (where the Shochet first
Shechted a third beyond the Makom Shechitah, a third inside, and the last
third outside again). There, he ruled Kasher due to the fact that the
animal's life departed from it whilst it was being Shechted (irrespective of
the fact that the majority of the Shechitah was not Kasher).
(d) By the same token, Rav Chisda concluded - in this latter case, the
animal must be Tereifah, because when the animal's life departed, it was not
being Shechted (irrespective of the fact that the majority of the Shechitah
(a) When Rav Nachman, arrived in Sura, they asked him about 'Shachat Shelish
Ve'higrim Shelish Ve'shachat Shelish'.
(b) He tried to resolve it from a statement by Rebbi Elazar bar Minyumi, who
ruled - that a Shechitah which resembles a comb is Kasher, which Rav Nachman
assumed refers to 'Shachat Shelish Ve'higrim Shelish Ve'shachat Shelish'.
(c) If, as they replied, the Beraisa is talking about a Shechitah which
takes place all inside the Makom Shechitah, the Chidush will be - that it is
not necessary for the Shechitah to be 'Mefura'as' (revealed [that one can
see from the side, from one end of the Shechitah to the other]).
(a) When Rebbi Kahana asked Rav Yehudah a series of She'eilos - Rebbi Aba
was sitting behind him.
(b) When Rav Kahana asked Rav Yehudah what the Din will be in a case of ...
1. ... Shachat Shelish Ve'higrim Shelish Ve'shachat Shelish, he ruled - that
it is Kasher.
(c) He then asked him about Shachat be'Makom Nekev and Shachat u'Paga
be'Nekev. 'Shachat ...
2. ... Higrim Shelish Ve'shachat Shelish Ve'higrim Shelish, he ruled that it
1. ... be'Makom Nekev' means - that when he began to Shecht the Kanah, where
there was already a hole or a split.
(d) Rav Yehudah ruled - that the Shechitah is Kasher in the case of 'Shachat
be'Makom Nekev' but Pasul in that of 'Shachat u'Paga be'Nekev'.
2. ... u'Paga be'Nekev' means - that he Shechted it in a spot where there
was a hole or a split in what would otherwise have been the last part of the
(a) When Rebbi Aba informed Rebbi Elazar of Rav Yehudah's rulings - he went
and repeated them to Rebbi Yochanan.
(b) Rebbi Elazar explained to Rebbi Yochanan - that 'Shachat be'Makom
Nekev' can be compared to a Yisrael who completed a Shechitah which a Nochri
began (which is Kasher); whereas 'Shachat u'Paga be'Nekev' is similar to a
Nochri who completed the Shechitah begun by a Yisrael (which is Pasul).
(c) Rebbi Yochanan disagreed with his explanation regarding 'Paga be'Nekev'
however - and demonstrated this by exclaiming 'Akum Akum!'
(d) Rava later concurred with Rebbi Yochanan, drawing a distinction between
an Akum finishing the Shechitah - where the animal's life departs with the
Shechitah of the Akum, and 'Paga be'Nekev', where it departs with the
Shechitah of the Yisrael.
(a) Our Mishnah rules that Shechting an animal from ...
1. ... the side of the neck is - Kasher
(b) Even though Shechting an animal from the side of the neck is permitted
Lechatchilah, the Tana uses the Lashon 'ha'Shochet' (implying Bedieved) - to
balance the Din of Melikah from the side, which is Pasul even Bedi'eved.
2. ... the back of the neck ('Mul Oref') is - Pasul, because it entails
first cutting through the Mafrekes (the back of the neck), rendering the
animal a Tereifah.
(c) With regard to performing Melikah on a bird of Kodshim in the same two
locations, the Tana rules - that from the side it is Pasul, whereas from the
back it is Kasher (Lechatchilah)
(d) The Melikah is ...
1. ... Pasul in the first case - because the Torah specifically writes
2. ... not Pasul in the second (just as it is Pasul regarding an animal) -
because seeing as the Torah requires piercing it from the back of the neck,
cutting through the Mafrekes is considered part of the Melikah.
(a) The Tana rules - that Shechitah from the Tzavar is Kasher, but Melikah
(b) The problem with the Mishnah 'ha'Shochet min ha'Oref, Shechitaso
Pesulah' (if taken literally) is - that Melikah ought to be Pasul there too
(since the Torah writes "mi'Mul Oref", as we already explained.
(c) So we interpret 'min ha'Oref' to mean - 'mi'Mul Oref', as is evident in
the Seifa 'Kol ha'Oref Kasher li'Melikah' (which can only mean 'Mul Oref').
(a) The Beraisa learns from the Pasuk ...
1. ... "Ki Panu Eilai Oref ve'Lo Panim" - that "Oref" is the part of the
skull that lies at the back of the face (and not the part that lies at the
back of the throat [i.e. the back of the neck]).
(b) The B'nei Rebbi Chiya describe the Mitzvah of Melikah as - 'Machzir
Si'manim la'Achorei ha'Oref'.
2. ... "ve'Hu Yoshev mi'Muli" - that "Mul Oref" means 'facing', and refers
to the lower part of the neck, which faces the 'Oref'.
(c) Their statement might mean - 'Af Machzir ... ' (that when performing
Melikah, the Kohen has the alternative of moving the Si'manim to behind the
Mafrekes before piercing them, should he so wish) or it might mean Davka
Machzir (that this is what he has to do).
(d) We prefer to say 'Af Machzir', because we learned in our Mishnah
ha'Shochet min ha'Oref, Shechitaso Pesulah, ha'Molek min ha'Oref, Melikaso
Kesheirah'. Now if Machzir was Davka, then there would be no reason for the
Shechitah to be Pasul (seeing as he does not cut the Mafrekes first).
Consequently, the Tana must be speaking when the was not Machzir the
Si'manim (a proof that this is Kasher, but leaving the She'eilah