ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Chulin 85
CHULIN 85 (26 Nissan) - dedicated by Mr. Avi Berger (of Queens, N.Y.) in
memory of his mother, Leah bas Michel Mordechai, on the day of her
(a) Rebbi Meir in our Mishnah, rules that the blood of a bird that one
Shechts and that turns out to be Tereifah, or that one Shechts to
Avodah-Zarah, Chulin bi'Fenim or Kodshim ba'Chutz - is subject to Kisuy
(b) Likewise, he obligates the Kisuy ha'Dam of a Chayah or an Of - that were
raped and that, following the ruling of Beis-Din, they ought to have been
stoned, but someone Shechted them first.
(c) The Chachamim (alias Rebbi Shimon) rule in the above cases - that the
blood is not subject to Kisuy ha'Dam (because they hold 'Shechitah she'Einah
Re'uyah, Lo Sh'mah Shechitah').
(d) Finally, the Mishnah rules in a case where the Shechitah turns out to be
Pasul, or where one killed the Chayah or the bird through Nichur or by
tearing out the Siman - that the blood is Patur from Kisuy ha'Dam, even
according to Rebbi Meir.
(a) Rebbi presents Rebbi Shimon as 'the Chachamim'. In the equilavalent set
of cases in 'Oso ve'es B'no' - he presented Rebbi Meir as the Chachamim.
(b) Rebbi Chiya bar Aba Amar Rebbi Yochanan comments on this - that Rebbi
did this because he preferred Rebbi Shimon's opinion by Kisuy ha'Dam, and
Rebbi Meir's by Oso ve'es B'no.
(c) Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi explains that Rebbi Meir learned his opinion by
'Oso ve'es B'no' with a 'Gezeirah-Shavah' "Shechitah" "Shechitah" - from
(d) Rebbi Shimon on the other hand, says Rebbi Mani bar Patish, learned his
opinion from the Pasuk "u'Tevo'ach Tevach ve'Hachen" - which refers to when
Yosef instructed Menasheh to Shecht an animal for his 'guests' to eat.
(a) Rebbi Meir declines to learn Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah by Oso ve'es
B'no from "u'Tevo'ach Tevach ve'Hachen" - because he prefers to learn
'Shechitah' from 'Shechitah', rather than from 'Tevichah'.
(b) Normally, it would not matter whether the 'Gezeirah-Shavah' is learned
from 'Shechitah' or from 'Zevichah' (like Tana de'Bei Rebbi Yishmael, who
learned a 'Gezeirah-Shavah' involving "ve'Shav ha'Kohen" and "u'Va ha'Kohen"
(with regard to Tzara'as Batim), based on the fact that the two words
("ve'Shav" and "u'Va") are similar in meaning - only here where there is a
choice, it is preferable to learn from 'Shechitah' than from 'Zevichah'.
(c) And Rebbi Shimon declines to learn Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah by Oso
ve'es B'no from Shechutei Chutz (where the Shechitah is Kasher) - because he
prefers to learn Chulin from Chulin, rather than from Kodshim.
(d) Rebbi however, prefers Rebbi Meir's counter argument - that since Oso
ve'es B'no pertains to Kodshim as well, it is perfectly justifiable to learn
it from Kodshim, like Rebbi Chiya bar Aba explains.
(a) Resh Lakish explains that, with regard to Kisuy ha'Dam, Rebbi Meir
learns 'Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah Sh'mah Shechitah' with a
'Gezeirah-Shavah' "Shefichah" "Shefichah" - from Shechutei Chutz.
(b) Based on the Pasuk "Asher Ye'achel" (written in connection with Kisuy
ha'Dam), Rebbi Shimon counters - that whatever cannot be eaten is not
subject to Kisuy ha'Dam.
(c) Rebbi Meir contends that we need "Asher Ye'achel" by Kisuy ha'Dam, to
preclude Tamei birds. Rebbi prefers Rebbi Shimon's opinion because of his
answer - that just as the Torah precludes Tamei birds because they cannot be
eaten, so too, does it preclude a Tereifah (and all birds and Chayos) for
precisely the same reason.
(a) Rebbi Aba points out that on the one hand, not in all regards does Rebbi
Meir hold 'Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah Sh'mah Shechitah', whereas on the
other, it is not in all regards that Rebbi Shimon holds ' ... Lo Sh'mah
Shechitah', either. Rebbi ...
1. ... Meir concedes that ' ... Lo Sh'mah Shechitah' - as far as eating the
animal is concerned, whereas Rebbi ...
(b) It is obvious that Shechitah cannot permit a Tereifah to be eaten.
Consequently, when Rebbi Aba informs us that Rebbi Meir concedes 'she'Ein
Matirasah ba'Achilah' - he must be referring (not to the Tereifah itself,
but) to the ninth-month ben Peku'ah that was found inside it, and which, he
is now teaching us, requires its own Shechitah, and cannot become permitted
with that of its mother.
2. ... Shimon concedes that ' ... Sh'mah Shechitah' - inasmuch as it renders
the animal no longer subject to Tum'as Neveilos.
(c) We have indeed learned that, according to Rebbi Meir, a ben Peku'ah
requires its own Shechitah anyway. Rebbi Aba however - is referring to
Rebbi, who holds like Rebbi Meir regarding 'Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah, but
like the Rabbanan in that 'a ben Peku'ah has four Simanim ... ' (as we
learned in Beheimah Hamaksheh).
(d) And he is coming to teach us - that though the Shechitah is effective as
regards removing the Tum'ah, it is not effective as regards a Heter Achilah,
even with regard to the ben Peku'ah (which is not a Tereifah).
(a) Rav Yehudah Amar Rav (or the Tana in a Beraisa) learns from the Pasuk
"ve'Chi Yamus *min* ha'Beheimah" - that some animals (that may not be eaten)
are Metamei Neveilah, whereas others are not
(b) A Tereifah that has been Shechted - is not Metamei.
(c) The problem this creates with Rebbi Aba's second statement is - that
Rebbi Shimon does not then seem to be teaching us anything?
(d) We answer by citing the Beraisa 'ha'Shochet es ha'Tereifah ve'Chein
ha'Shochet ve'Nimtza'as Tereifah, Zeh ve'Zeh Chulin ba'Azarah ... '. The
former case refers to an animal with its legs severed (which everyone can
see is a Tereifah), the latter, to an internal Tereifus (such as a hole in
the intestines, which nobody knows about until it is Shechted).
(a) In the current case, the Beraisa continues 'Rebbi Shimon Matir
be'Hana'ah' - because the Torah requires Shechitah with regard to Chulin
ba'Azarah ("ki Yirchak ... *Ve'azvachta*" [Re'ei]), and Rebbi Shimon holds
'Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah, Lo Sh'mah Shechitah'.
(b) The Chachamim Rebbi Meir) rule - that it is Asur be'Hana'ah (because
they hold ' ... Sh'mah Shechitah').
(c) This Beraisa help us understand Rebbi Aba's latter statement, because we
would otherwise have extrapolated from Rebbi Shimon's ruling there - that if
the Shechitah of Chulin ba'Azarah does not even become forbidden, because
the animal was a Tereifah, it must be because it is not considered a
Shechitah at all. Comes Rebbi Aba, and teaches us that it is.
(a) Rav Papa asked Abaye whether Rebbi Shimon really holds that Chulin
she'Nishchatu ba'Azarah is d'Oraysa - and not de'Rabbanan, in case one comes
to eat Kodshim ba'Chutz.
(b) Rav Papa extrapolates from Rebbi Shimon that it is d'Oraysa, because if
it was de'Rabbanan, they ought to have forbidden it even by Chulin that are
not fit to eat, in case one comes to permit Kodshim that are not fit (and
which are really Asur be'Hana'ah).
(c) If it is d'Oraysa, the source for the Isur is - the Pasuk in Re'ei "Ki
Yirchak ... ha'Makom ... Ve'zavachta" (as we explained earlier).
(d) Abaye replied in the affirmative - deriving his answer from the Mishnah
in Temurah, which quotes Rebbi Shimon 'Chulin She'Nishchatu ba'Azarah
Yisarfu ba'Eish; ve'Chein Chayah she'Nishchatah ba'Azarah', implying that it
is d'Oraysa, because if it was only mi'de'Rabbanan, they would not have
extended the decree to a Chayah (since that would be a 'Gezeirah
(a) When moths attacked Rebbi Chiya's linen clothes, Rebbi advised him to
Shecht a bird into the pool in which they were soaking, since the smell of
birds' blood, repugnant to moths, would cause them to fly away.
(b) Based on a Beraisa, which rules that someone who Shechts a bird and
needs the blood, is nevertheless obligated to cover it, we have a problem
with Rebbi's ruling.
(c) The Tana circumvents the problem - by permitting him either to perform
Nechirah on the bird, or to tear out one of the Simanim (rendering the bird
(a) When Rav Dimi arrived from Eretz Yisrael, he quoted Rebbi as having
instructed Rebbi Chiya to go and render the bird a Tereifah. When Ravina
arrived from Eretz Yisrael, he quoted Rebbi as having instructed Rebbi
Chiya - to go and perform Nechirah on it.
(b) We ask why Rav Dimi did not cite the episode like Ravin. We reject the
suggestion that Rebbi does not require Shechitah min ha'Torah, and that the
animal's Nechirah would have therefore been considered as its Shechitah, on
the basis of a Beraisa, where, based on the Pasuk "Ve'zavachta ... Ka'asher
Tzivisicha", Rebbi ruled - that Moshe was commanded the Halachos of
Shechitah at Sinai.
(c) Besides the Shechitah of the Veshet and of the Kaneh, Rebbi there
incorporates in "Ka'asher Tzivisicha" - the majority of one Siman by a bird,
and of two Simanim by an animal.
(d) And Rav Dimi cited Rebbi as having said 'Tzei Terof', and not 'Tzei
Nechor' to teach us - that not only would Nocher have exempted Rebbi Chiya
from Kisuy ha'Dam, but that making it a Tereifah would too.