POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Previous daf Kidushin 8
KIDUSHIN 7-10 - Dedicated by an admirer of the work of the Dafyomi
Advancement Forum, l'Iluy Nishmas Mrs. Gisela (Golda bas Reb
Chaim Yitzchak Ozer) Turkel, A"H.
1) MUST KIDUSHIN MONEY BE QUANTIFIED?
(a) A man was Mekadesh a woman with silk.
2) WHEN MUST THE MONEY BE GIVEN?
(b) (Rabah): We need not appraise the silk.
(c) (Rav Yosef): The silk must be appraised.
1. [Version #1: If he told her that he engages her with
an arbitrary (very small) amount, all agree that no
appraisal is needed.
(d) Support #1 (Rav Yosef for himself - Beraisa): "(A slave
is redeemed) from the money of his purchase" - a slave is
acquired through money, not through grain and vessels.
2. If he told her that it is worth 50, and it is not -
she did not agree to be Mekudeshes for less!
3. They argue when he told her that it is worth 50, and
i. Rabah says, no appraisal is needed, for it is
4. [Version #2: They also argue if he told her that he
engages her with an arbitrary amount.
ii. Rav Yosef says, an appraisal is needed - since
women do not know the value, if it is not
appraised, she does not firmly decide that she
wants to be Mekudeshes.]
i. Rav Yosef says, something worth money must be
as money (to engage): just as money has a set
value, also something worth money.]
1. Question: What is the case of grain and vessels?
(e) Rejection: Rabah explains the Beraisa to say that money
is a valid acquisition of a slave, but not the
acquisition done with grain and vessels, i.e. Chalipin.
i. Suggestion: They cannot acquire him at all.
2. Answer: Rather, they are worth a Perutah, but they
were not appraised, so their value is not set.
ii. Rejection: "He will give back his redemption",
comes to include something worth money!
iii. Suggestion: The grain and vessels are not worth
iv. Rejection: If so, why did the Beraisa specify
grain and vessels - even money less than a
Perutah cannot acquire him!
(f) Question: According to Rav Nachman, only vessels can make
Chalipin - how can Rabah explain the Beraisa?
(g) Answer: Really, the grain and vessels are not worth a
Perutah; the Beraisa specified grain and vessels, for one
might have thought only money less than a Perutah cannot
1. Grain and vessels have the advantage that a person
can immediately benefit from them (whereas he does
not benefit from money until he buys something). One
might have thought, a slave acquires himself to a
master for them, even if they are not worth a
Perutah - we hear, this is not so.
(h) Support #2 (Rav Yosef for himself - Beraisa): A man said
'I give this calf (or this garment) to redeem my son' -
this does not work;
(i) 'I give this calf (or this garment) as 5 Sela'im to
redeem my son' - this works.
(j) Question: What is the case?
1. Suggestion: If they are not worth 5 Sela'im - how
can he say they are as 5 Sela'im to make the
(k) Answer: Rather, they are worth 5 Sela'im, but if he does
not say their value, the value is not set, they are not
as money and cannot redeem.
1. Rejection: Really, they are not worth 5 Sela'im; the
case is, the Kohen accepted them in place of 5
i. Rav Kahana took a turban in place of the 5
Sela'im for redemption - to him, it was worth 5
2. (Rav Ashi): This only works regarding a great man as
Rav Kahana, who needs a turban, nut not for regular
i. Mar bar Rav Ashi paid 13 for a turban that was
only worth 10 (because he was a great man, he
needed it more than other people).
(a) (R. Elazar): A man said 'Be Mekudeshes to me with 100
Dinarim', and he gave her 1 Dinar - she is Mekudeshes,
and he must give the rest.
3) COLLATERAL IN PLACE OF KIDUSHIN MONEY
(b) Question: Why is this?
(c) Answer: It is as if he said 'Be Mekudeshes to me with a
Dinar on condition that I give you 99 more'.
1. (Rav Huna): Saying 'on condition that' is as saying
(the engagement should take effect) 'from now'.
(d) Question (Beraisa): 'Be Mekudeshes to me with 100
Dinarim', and he was counting out the money as he put it
in her hand - he or she may retract until the last Dinar
(e) Answer: The case is, he said 'Be Mekudeshes to me with
these 100 Dinarim'.
(f) Question: The end of the Beraisa is when he said 'with
these 100 Dinarim', so the beginning of the Beraisa must
be when he said '100 Dinarim', without saying 'these'!
1. (End of the Beraisa): 'Be Mekudeshes to me with
these 100 Dinarim', and they were found to be only
99, or 1 of them was copper (instead of silver) -
she is not Mekudeshes;
(g) Answer #1: Also in the beginning of the Beraisa he said
'These 100'; the latter clause explains the first clause.
2. If 1 of them was a bad Dinar, she is Mekudeshes, and
he must exchange it for a proper Dinar.
1. He or she may retract until the last Dinar is given
- this is when he said 'Be Mekudeshes to me with
these 100 Dinarim'.
(h) Answer #2 (Rav Ashi): The case when he counts out the
money is different, for then she intends to be Mekudeshes
with the full sum.
2. Support: Presumably, this is correct - if the first
clause teaches that when he said 'with 100 Dinarim'
they can retract, we would not have to teach when he
said 'with these 100 Dinarim'!
3. Rejection: That is no proof - perhaps the latter
clause was taught to show that the first clause is
when he did not say 'these'!
(i) Question: What is the case when 1 Dinar was found to be
1. Suggestion: If she knew that 1 was copper - she
(j) Answer #1: The case is, he gave her at night, she did not
(k) Answer #2: It was concealed by the other coins, so she
did not notice at the time.
(l) Question: What is the case when 1 Dinar was found to be
1. Suggestion: If people do not accept it as a Dinar -
the law should be as that of a copper Dinar!
(m) Answer (Rav Papa): People do not accept it willingly.
(a) (Rava citing Rav Nachman): 'Be Mekudeshes to me for a
Maneh', and he gave her collateral - she is not
4) INTERPRETING WHETHER A WOMAN ACCEPTS KIDUSHIN
1. Since the Maneh is not here, the collateral takes no
(b) Question (Rava - Beraisa): If a man was Mekadesh a woman
with collateral, she is Mekudeshes.
(c) Answer: That refers to collateral for the loan of a third
party, as R. Yitzchak taught.
1. (R. Yitzchak): "To you it will be Tzedakah (that you
return the pledge in its proper time)" - this shows
that the lender acquires a pledge.
(d) Rav Huna's children agreed to buy a slave for small
coins. They did not have the coins with them - they left
a piece of precious metal as collateral. The value of the
slave increased (and the seller wanted to retract).
i. If he did not acquire it, it would not be
called Tzedakah to return it!
1. R. Ami: The coins were never given, so the
collateral has no effect.
(a) (Beraisa): A man told a woman 'Be Mekudeshes to me with a
Maneh'; she took it and threw it into the sea, a fire, or
another place it will be lost - she is not Mekudeshes.
1. Inference: Had she thrown it back at him, she would
(b) (Beraisa): 'Be Mekudeshes to me with a Maneh'; she
replied, 'Give it to my father or your father' - she is
2. Question: But she shows that she does not want it!
3. Answer: The inference is wrong; rather, the Beraisa
teaches a bigger Chidush.
i. Not only if she throws it back at him, she is
not Mekudeshes; rather, even if she throws it
to a place where it will be lost and she will
have to pay, she is not Mekudeshes.
ii. One might have thought, she accepts the
engagement, and is testing to see if her
husband gets angry easily - we hear, this is
1. If she said 'on condition that they receive it for
me', she is Mekudeshes.
(c) (Continuation of Beraisa): If she said 'Give it to Ploni'
- she is not Mekudeshes; 'on condition that he receive it
for me', she is Mekudeshes.
2. The Beraisa teaches 'my father' as a Chidush in the
first case, that she is not Mekudeshes; 'your
father' is a Chidush in the second case, that she is
(d) All the cases must be taught.
1. If we only heard by 'my father and your father' - we
would think, only then she is Mekudeshes when she
said 'on condition that he receive it for me', for
she relies on them.
(e) (Beraisa): 'Be Mekudeshes to me with a Maneh'; she
replied, 'Put it on the rock' - she is not Mekudeshes; if
it was her rock, she is Mekudeshes.
2. If we only heard by Ploni - we would think, only
then she is not Mekudeshes when she said 'give it to
Ploni', for she does not feel so close to him;
i. But had she said, 'give it to my father or your
father', she accepts engagement and wants to
give it to one of them as a gift - we hear,
this is not so.
(f) Question (Rav Bibi): What if they were partners in the
1. This question is unresolved.
(g) (Beraisa): 'Be Mekudeshes to me with a loaf; she replied,
'Give it to the dog' - she is not Mekudeshes; if it was
her dog, she is Mekudeshes.
(h) Question (Rav Mari): If the dog was chasing her - what is
1. With the benefit that she is being saved, she
acquires herself (to him);
(i) (Beraisa): 'Be Mekudeshes to me with a loaf'; she
replied, 'Give it to this poor man' - she is not
Mekudeshes, even if the poor man relied on her for his
2. Or - does she say, the Torah obligated you to save
i. This question is unresolved.
1. This is because she tells him that he also must feed
(j) A man was selling buttons (or glass rings) beaded on
strings. A woman asked for a string of them.
1. The man: If I give you, will you be Mekudeshes to
(k) Similarly: a man was drinking beer in a store; a woman
asked for a cup of beer. He asked if she would be
Mekudeshes to him for it; she requested the beer (twice).
Rav Chama ruled, she is not Mekudeshes.
2. The woman: Give, give.
i. (Rav Chama): This does not denote consent to be
1. Rav Zvid ruled thusly in a similar case of a woman
that requested dates that a man was knocking down
from a tree.
(l) Question: What is the law if she only said once 'Give'?
(m) Answer #1 (Ravina): She is Mekudeshes.
(n) Answer #2 (Rav Sama bar Riksa): She is not Mekudeshes.
1. The law is, she is not Mekudeshes.
(o) The law is, silk need not be appraised.
(p) The law is as R. Elazar (8A, if one gives part of the
promised engagement money, she is Mekudeshes on condition
that he give the rest).
(q) The law is as Rava (8A, if one gives collateral in place
of engagement money, she is not Mekudeshes).