POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Previous daf Kidushin 74
KIDUSHIN 72-75 - sponsored by a generous grant from an anonymous
donor. Kollel Iyun Hadaf is indebted to him for his
encouragement and support and prays that Hashem will repay him
1) PEOPLE THAT ARE ONLY BELIEVED RIGHT AWAY
(a) A judge is believed to say which party won the case and
which party must pay.
2) CHECKING SHETUKIM
1. This is only when the parties are in front of him -
if not, he is not believed.
(b) Question: We should look at the written verdict!
(c) Answer: The case is, it was torn up.
(d) Question: He should judge them again!
(e) Answer: The case is, the verdict was based on Shuda
(Rashi - the judge's estimation; Tosfos - the judge's
discretion, whom he prefers to favor), perhaps he will
not rule as the first time.
(f) (Rav Nachman): Three people are believed regarding a
firstborn: the midwife, the father and the mother.
1. The midwife is only believed right away; the mother
is believed the first 7 days; the father is believed
2. Support (Beraisa - R. Yehudah): "He will recognize"
- the father will inform others who is the
i. From here we learn that a man is believed to
say which son is his firstborn; similarly, he
is believed to say that a certain son was born
from a divorcee or Chalutzah (so he is a
ii. Chachamim say, he is not believed to say that
his son is a Chalal.
(a) (Mishnah): Aba Sha'ul would call a Shetuki a checked one.
3) FORBIDDEN LINEAGES
(b) Question: What does this mean?
(c) Answer: We ask his mother - if she says that his father
is Kosher, she is believed.
1. This is as R. Gamliel.
(d) Question: We already have a Mishnah teaching this!
1. (Mishnah - R. Gamliel and R. Eliezer): A single girl
was pregnant; she said, the father is Ploni, he is
Kosher - she is believed;
(e) Answer: That Mishnah teaches that we believe the girl
that she was not disqualified from Kehunah; our Mishnah
teaches that she is believed regarding the child (that he
2. R. Yehoshua says, she is not believed.
3. (Rav Yehudah): The law is as R. Gamliel.
1. We understand according to the opinion that even R.
Gamliel and R. Eliezer only believe her regarding
herself, but not regarding the child - Aba Sha'ul
teaches, she is even believed regarding the child.
2. Question: According to the opinion that R. Gamliel
and R. Eliezer even believe her regarding the child
- Aba Sha'ul doesn't teach anything new!
3. Answer: One might have thought, she is only believed
when most men in the city are permitted to her - but
if most are forbidden to her, she is not believed -
Aba Sha'ul teaches, this is not so.
i. (Rava): The law is as Aba Sha'ul.
(a) (Mishnah): All that are forbidden to marry into the
congregation, they are permitted to each other; R.
(b) R. Elazar says, definite Mamzerim may marry definite
Mamzerim; doubtful Mamzerim may not marry definite nor
1. Doubtful Mamzerim - these are Shetuki, Asufi and
(c) (Gemara) Question: What does it mean, 'All that are
forbidden to marry into the congregation'?
1. Suggestion: It means, Mamzerim, Nesinim, Shetukim
2. Rejection #1: The first Mishnah taught this!
3. Rejection #2: If so, regarding what does R. Yehudah
i. Suggestion: If he forbids doubtful Mamzerim
from marrying definite Mamzerim - R. Elazar
forbids this in the next clause, implying that
R. Yehudah permits it!
ii. Suggestion: Perhaps R. Yehudah forbids a
convert to marry a Mamzeres.
iii. Rejection: We cannot say this, the Mishnah did
not mention this, it spoke of those forbidden
to enter the congregation!
(d) Answer #1 (Rav Yehudah): The Mishnah says - all that are
forbidden to marry into the congregation of Kehunah -
such as a girl that converted before 3 years old (unlike
R. Shimon bar Yochai) - they may marry each other (i.e.
she may marry a convert).
1. Question: Why not say that it speaks of a girl that
converted above 3 years old, as R. Shimon?
(e) Answer #2 (R. Noson bar Hoshiyah): Rather, the Mishnah
says: anyone that may not marry his daughter to a Kohen -
such as a convert that married a convert, according to R.
Eliezer ben Yakov - he may marry other such people
2. Answer: If so, this would imply that had she
converted before 3 years old, she would be
(permitted to Kohanim, as R. Shimon, and) forbidden
to other converts - but this is not true.
3. Objection #1: The rule of the Mishnah (as Rav
Yehudah explains) is not always true!
i. A divorcee, Chalalah, or Zonah cannot marry
Kohanim (nor can a widow marry a Kohen Gadol) -
they are not permitted to forbidden lineages
(such as Mamzerim)!
4. Objection #2: We infer from the Mishnah, someone
permitted to Kehunah (such as a convert, who can
marry a Bas Kohen) would be forbidden to forbidden
lineages - but a convert may marry a Mamzeres!
1. Objection: But a Chalal that married a Bas Yisrael -
his daughter is a Chalalah, she cannot marry a
Kohen, yet a Chalal cannot marry a Mamzeres!
(f) Answer #3 (Rav Nachman): The Tana'im argue whether
Mamzerim result from siblings that marry each other.
2. Answer: The Mishnah is as R. Dosta'i ben Yehudah
(who says that children of a Chalal from a Bas
Yisrael are Kesherim).
3. Objection #1: But a Chalal that married a Chalalah -
all agree that his daughter is a Chalalah, she
cannot marry a Kohen, yet a Chalal cannot marry a
4. Objection #2: We infer from the Mishnah, someone
whose daughter is permitted to Kehunah (such as a
convert who married a Bas Yisrael) would be
forbidden to forbidden lineages - but a convert may
marry a Mamzeres!
1. The first Tana says, the children are Mamzerim; R.
Yehudah says, Mamzerim result from adultery, not
(g) Answer #4 (Rava): The Tana'im argue regarding Amoni and
2. Objection: We already learned this argument in a
i. (Mishnah - R. Akiva): Mamzerim result from any
act of relations forbidden by a Lav;
ii. Shimon ha'Teimani says, from any act of incest
punishable by Kares - this is the law;
iii. R. Yehoshua says, from any incest punishable by
1. The first Tana says, anyone that may not enter the
congregation - such as an Amoni or Mo'avi convert -
he may marry other such people.
2. Question: If so, why does R. Yehudah forbid this?
3. Answer: It means, even though R. Yehudah forbids a
convert to marry a Mamzeres - that is only by
converts permitted to Yisraelim;
i. He admits that Amonim and Mo'avim, who are
forbidden to Yisrael, may marry Mamzerim.