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1) BAD REPUTE

(a) (Rav): We lash a man and woman that are secluded, but we do not forbid a woman (Rashi - to he husband; Tosfos - to Kehunah) on account of seclusion.
(b) (Rav Ashi): We only lash a single girl that was secluded, but not a married woman, lest people say that her children are Mamzerim.
(c) Mar Zutra would lash (married women) and announce that this was only for seclusion, not for relations.

1. Rav Nachman of Parhetya (to Rav Ashi): You should do the same!
2. Rav Ashi: Perhaps someone will hear about the lashes, but not the announcement.

(d) (Rav): We lash someone on whom there are constantly rumors of immorality - "Cease my sons, for there are bad reports".
(e) Mar Zutra would put a bridle on the shoulder of the people he whipped, and read that verse.
(f) (Rabah): If a woman's husband is in town, there is no problem of seclusion with her.
(g) (Rav Yosef): If there is an opening open to the public domain, there is no problem of seclusion.
(h) Rav Bivi visited Rav Yosef; he asked that they remove the ladder (so he should be unable to descend and be secluded with Rav Yosef and Rav Yosef's wife.
(i) Question: But Rabah taught, if a woman's husband is in town, there is no problem of seclusion!
(j) Answer: Rav Bivi was close with Rav Yosef's wife, so Rabah's law does not apply.
(k) (Rav Kahana): If men are in an outer room, and women are in an inner room, we are not concerned for seclusion (a man would not enter the women's room);

1. If men are in an inner room, and women are in an outer room, we are concerned for seclusion (perhaps a man will enter the women's room).

(l) A Beraisa teaches just the opposite!
(m) Abaye: Out of doubt, we must be stringent and forbid both.
(n) Abaye would make a wall of flasks (between the men and women); Rava would make a wall of reeds.
(o) The worst time of year is the festivals (for men and women are together, this results in sin).

(a) Some women taken captive were redeemed and brought to Nehardai; they were kept in the attic of Rav Amram the Chasid; the ladder was removed.
(b) A beam of light reflected from one of the women; Rav Amram was seized with lust - he moved the ladder to ascend (which normally needs 10 people to move it). As he was halfway up, he screamed 'There is a fire in Rav Amram's house' - Rabanan flocked to his house.

1. Rabanan: You embarrassed us!
2. Rav Amram: It is better to suffer embarrassment in this world than in the next.

(c) Rav Amram put an oath on his evil inclination, forcing it to leave him - a pillar of fire left him.
(d) R. Meir used to scorn sinners. One day, the Satan appeared to him as a woman on the other side of the river. Since there was no boat, R. Meir tried crossing on the planks holding a string stretched across the river. When he was halfway across, the Satan abandoned him.

1. This was only because a voice from Heaven proclaimed not to harm him, because the world needs his Torah.

(e) R. Akiva used to scorn sinners. One day, the Satan appeared to him as a woman at the top of a date tree. R. Akiva started climbing. When he was halfway up, the Satan abandoned him.

1. This was only because a voice from Heaven proclaimed not to harm him, because the world needs his Torah.

(f) Flimo used to taunt the Satan. One Erev Yom Kipur, the Satan appeared as a poor man at the door; Flimo gave him bread. The man asked to eat with him; he agreed. The man was covered with boils, and was doing disgusting things; Flimo asked him to sit nicely.

(g) The man asked for a cup of wine; he spit into it. Flimo showed anger; the man appeared to die. Flimo heard people saying 'Flimo killed a man'; he fled to a Beis ha'Kisei. The Satan saw that Flimo was suffering; he revealed himself.

1. The Satan: Why did you always taunt me?
2. Flimo: How else should I distance myself from you?
3. The Satan: You should ask Hash-m to save you from me.

(h) Whenever R, Chiya bar Ashi would fall on his face in supplication, he would ask Hash-m to save him from the evil inclination. Once, his wife heard this; she was surprised, for he had separated from her a long time ago on account of old age.
(i) One day as he was learning outside, she disguised herself and passed in front of him. He asked who she was; she said she was the town harlot. He asked to sin with her.
(j) When he returned home, he wanted to kill himself. His wife proved that it was her, still he fasted the rest of his life, because he intended to sin.
(k) (Beraisa): "Her husband annulled her vow; Hash-m will forgive her" - this speaks of a woman who (intended to) transgress her vow, unaware that her husband annulled it.

1. R. Akiva would cry over this verse: one who intended to sin and did not sin needs atonement and forgiveness - how much the more so, one who intended to sin and sinned!

(l) (Isi ben Yehudah): "He did not know, and transgressed, he will bear his sin" - this should make everyone fear!

(a) (Mishnah): A man may be secluded with his mother.
(b) (Rav Yehudah): A man may be secluded with his sister; he may live with his mother or daughter.
(c) (Shmuel): It is forbidden to be secluded with all forbidden women, even with an animal.
(d) Question (Mishnah): A male may be secluded with his mother or daughter; he may sleep with them without clothes.

1. This refutes Shmuel!
2. Counter-question (Shmuel - Beraisa): A sister, mother-in-law, and all forbidden relations - a man may only be secluded with them if witnesses are there.

(e) Answer: We see, Tana'im argue regarding seclusion with relatives.

1. (Beraisa): R. Meir would not be secluded with his daughter, R. Tarfon would not be secluded with his daughter-in-law.
2. A Talmid mocked them for this - shortly, he sinned with his mother-in-law.

(f) (Shmuel): ...Even with an animal.
(g) Abaye and Rav Sheshes were careful not to be alone (some say - not to let a shepherd be alone) with animals.
(h) R. Chanan asked Rav Kahana why he was learning with no people around, only an animal.

1. Rav Kahana: I conduct as Shmuel - I just didn't notice.

(i) (Rava): A man may be secluded with Leah and Rachel in all of the following situations:

1. They are married to brothers, or to the same man;
2. Leah is Rachel's mother-in-law, or her step-mother (Bach - or her husband's sister); (such women are prone to hate each other - if 1 sinned, the other would publicize it);
3. Leah is old enough to understand what relations are, not old enough that she would consent to relations.

(a) (Mishnah): When they grow up, they must sleep in their clothes.
(b) Question: What is considered having grown up?
(c) [Version #1 (Rav Ada bar Rav Aza): For a girl - above 9; for a boy - above 12.]
(d) [Version #2: For a girl - above 12; for a boy - above 13.]

1. Both versions agree, we are only concerned for a girl that has signs of Na'arus.

(e) (Rafram bar Papa): A girl that is embarrassed to stand naked in front of her father is forbidden even before this, for this shows that the evil inclination tempts her.
(f) R. Acha bar Aba visited Rav Chisda (his father-in-law); he picked up Rav Chisda's granddaughter.

1. Rav Chisda: She is Mekudeshes!
2. R. Acha: You transgressed Rav, who says that a man should not Mekadesh his daughter until she matures, and knows who she wants to marry!
3. Rav Chisda: You transgressed Shmuel, who says that we do not use a woman!
4. R. Acha: I hold as another teaching of Shmuel - if done for the sake of Heaven (e.g. to show the girl's mother that I cherish her daughter), it is permitted.