POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
Ask A Question on the daf
Previous daf Menachos 81
1) A "TODAH" THAT WAS MIXED WITH ITS "TEMURAH" (cont.)
(a) Question #4 (R. Yitzchak bar Shmuel bar Marsa): Why can't
he bring another animal with bread, and stipulate:
2) MAY "TODAH" BE BROUGHT FROM "MA'ASER SHENI"?
1. If the remaining animal is the Temurah, this is a
Todah and its bread;
(b) Answer (Rav Nachman): One is lashed for making Temurah,
surely we do not do so l'Chatchilah!
2. If the remaining animal is the Todah, the new animal
is Temuras Todah!
(c) Question #5 (Rav Ila, Abaye and Rabanan): According to R.
Yochanan, if Lachmei Todah were outside the Azarah but
within Beis Pagi, the bread is Mekudash - why can't he
bring bread to there, and stipulate:
1. If the remaining animal is the Todah, this is its
bread; if not, the bread is Chulin!
(d) Answer: This will not work, for four breads must be (made
Terumah and) waved;
1. Tenufah must be Lifnei Hash-m (inside the Azarah),
but we cannot bring the bread inside, perhaps it is
(e) Question #6 (Rav Shisha brei d'Rav Idi): According to
Chizkiyah, if Todah was slaughtered for 80 loaves, 40 of
them become Kodesh, there is a solution!
1. He brings another animal with 80 breads, and
stipulates - if the remaining animal is a Todah,
this is another Todah, the breads are for the two
(f) Answer: We may not do this, for this may cause 40 of the
breads to be wasted (if they are not eaten within one day
- perhaps they are really Chulin, and we transgress 'Bal
Tashchis'. Alternatively, perhaps the Kohanim will not be
able to finish all eight 'Terumah' loaves (or they will
not strive to finish them, for they suspect that they are
not really Terumah), some will be burned, even though (in
reality) four of them are not Terumah, Yisraelim should
have eaten them!)
2. If the remaining animal is the Temurah, the new
animal is Todah, 40 of the breads should become
Kodesh for it.
(g) Question #7 (Rav Ashi): (R. Yochanan says that if one was
Makdish a pregnant animal for a Chatas and it gave birth,
he may offer the mother or child to fulfill his
obligation.) According to R. Yochanan, he should bring a
pregnant animal, wait for it to give birth, bring the
mother and child with 80 breads, and stipulate:
1. If the remaining animal is Temurah, the mother and
child are both Todos, the 80 breads are for them;
(h) Answer (Rav Kahana): You assume that R. Yochanan holds
that one may Meshayer (leave a remnant, i.e. the fetus is
independent, can be a Korban by itself, it does not
automatically receive its mother's Kedushah);
2. If the remaining animal is Todah, the mother is
Todah, the child is Mosar Todah (or vice-versa), the
breads are for the two Todos. (This is not like
being Makdish Mosar l'Chatchilah, for he was Makdish
one animal, part of it became Todah.)
1. Perhaps R. Yochanan holds that one cannot Meshayer -
one may fulfill his obligation with mother or child,
because he holds that one may get atonement through
(i) Question #7 (Rav Dimi brei d'Rav Huna): Why can't he say
'Alai Todah', bring two animals with 80 breads, and
1. If the remaining animal is a Temurah, the two new
animals are Todos, the breads are for them;
(j) Answer (Ravina): It says "Tov Asher Lo Sidor mishe'Tidor
v'Lo Seshalem", all agree that l'Chatchilah, we do not
vow ('Alai', which obligates one to replace the Korban if
it is lost)!
2. If the remaining animal is Todah, one new animal is
Todah, the other is Acharayos, the breads are for
(a) (Mishnah): If one said 'Alai Todah', he must bring it and
its bread from Chulin (i.e. he may not use money of
(b) If he said 'Alai Todah from Chulin, its bread will be
from Ma'aser', he must bring it and its bread from
3) A VOW TO BRING A "TODAH" WITHOUT BREAD
(c) If he said 'Alai Todah from Ma'aser, its bread will be
from Chulin', he brings like he said;
(d) If he said 'It (Todah) and its bread will be from
Ma'aser', he brings like he said;
(e) He may not make the bread from wheat of Ma'aser Sheni,
rather, he buys it from money of Ma'aser Sheni.
(f) (Gemara - Rav Huna): If one says 'Alai Lachmei Todah', he
must bring a Todah and its bread.
(g) Question: What is the reason?
(h) Answer: He knows that one cannot bring Lachmei Todah
without Todah, he intends to bring a Todah and its bread
- he only said the last words of his intent.
(i) Question (Mishnah): If he said 'Alai Todah from Ma'aser,
its bread will be from Chulin', he brings like he said;
1. We should say that his vow to bring bread from
Chulin obligates him to bring also Todah from
(j) Answer: That is different, since he said that the Todah
will be from Ma'aser, it is as if he vowed to bring bread
for someone else that will bring a Todah.
(k) Question: In the previous clause, he vowed a Todah from
Chulin and bread from Ma'aser, he must bring both from
1. We do not say, it is as if he vowed to bring a Todah
for someone else that will bring bread!
(l) Answer: The Todah is primary, it is reasonable that he
vows to bring bread for someone else that will bring a
Todah, but not vice-versa.
(a) Question (Beraisa): If one said 'Alai Todah without
bread', or 'Alai Zevach without Nesachim', we force him
to bring a Todah with bread, a Zevach with Nesachim;
1. Inference: Had he not said 'Todah' (rather, Lachmei
Todah), he would be exempt!
(b) Answer: No, even had he not said 'Todah', he would be
1. The Tana said 'Todah without bread' for parallel
structure with 'Zevach without Nesachim' - there, it
must say Zevach, for one can bring Nesachim by
(c) Question: Why is he obligated? Granted, 'Todah' obligates
him to bring Todah and bread, but 'without bread' is a
(d) Answer #1 (Chizkiyah): The Beraisa is like Beis Shamai,
who say Tefos Lashon Rishon (we follow the first thing
said, he cannot retract);
1. (Mishnah - Beis Shamai): If one said 'I am a Nazir
from figs and dates', he is a (regular) Nazir;
(e) Answer #2 (R. Yochanan): It is even like Beis Hillel -
the case is, he says 'Had I known that one cannot bring a
Todah without bread, I would have vowed properly (to
bring bread also).'
2. Beis Hillel say, he is not a Nazir. (Most Meforshim
say, he may eat figs and dates; Rambam forbids.)
(f) Question The Beraisa says, we force him to bring a Todah
with bread - this shows that he does not want to bring
(g) Answer: The case is, he explained his intent (to vow
properly), later he retracted and does not want to
fulfill it, therefore we force him.
(h) Question (Beraisa): If one said 'Alai Todah without
bread', or 'Alai Zevach without Nesachim', and they told
him that he must bring a Todah with bread, a Zevach with
Nesachim, and he said 'Had I known this, I would not have
vowed', we force to to fulfill his vow, we tell him
1. Chizkiyah would say that also this is like Beis
Shamai, but how can R. Yochanan explain this like
Beis Hillel (he explicitly says that he would not
(i) Answer: R. Yochanan admits that this Beraisa is like Beis
(j) Question: How do we understand "Shemor v'Shomata"?
(k) Answer #1 (Abaye): "Shemor" - bring a Todah; "v'Shomata"
- bring the bread;
(l) Answer #2 (Rava): "Shemor" - bring a Todah and its bread;
"v'Shomata" - do not make such a vow again.
(m) (Mishnah): If he said 'It (Todah) and its bread will be
from Ma'aser', he brings like he said.
(n) Question: Must he bring from Ma'aser? (Surely, it is
better to bring from Chulin!)
(o) Answer (Rav Nachman and Rav Chisda): It means, he may
bring from Ma'aser.
(p) (Mishnah): He may not make the bread from wheat of
Ma'aser Sheni, rather, he buys it from money of Ma'aser
(q) (Rav Nachman and Rav Chisda): (This means,) he may not
make the bread from wheat of Ma'aser Sheni, but he may
make the bread from wheat bought with money of Ma'aser