POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Previous daf Menachos 87
MENACHOS 87 (7 Teves) - Dedicated by Dr. Josh Daniel of Efrat, Israel, in
memory of his brother, Yitzchok Yisroel [ben Refael Noach Yosef] Daniel, on
1) INFERIOR WINES
(a) (Continuation of Mishnah): We do not use wine from the
top of the barrel, for it contains mold, nor from the
bottom, which has dregs, only from (a spout in) the
middle of the middle third.
2) WINE FOR "NESACHIM"
(b) Question: How do we check (which wine is coming out)?
(c) Answer: The Gizbar sits with a stick in his hand. When
the wine coming out turns white (this is on account of
dregs), the Gizbar raps with his stick (Rambam - pushing
away the one collecting it; Rashi - on the barrel, to
show that no more should be taken.)
(d) R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah says, wine with mold is Pasul.
(e) (The source for all the Pesulim of our Perek is) "Temimim
Yihyu Lachem u'Minchasam...Temimim Yihyu Lachem
v'Niskeihem" (Rashash, based on Rambam (85A). Rashi -
this is R. Yosi's source to Posel moldy wine.)
(f) (Gemara - Mishnah): We do not bring sweet, smoked or
cooked wine; if it was brought, it is Pasul;
(g) Contradiction: The Mishnah is Machshir Halistiyon
b'Diavad, this is also sweet!
(h) Answer #1 (Ravina): Really, the two clauses go together
(we do not bring from Halistiyon because we do not bring
sweet wine; if it was brought, it is Pasul);
(i) Answer #2 (Rav Ashi): Halistiyon is from grapes stricken
by the sun, it is not detestable; the Mishnah is Posel
wine that is sweet because the grapes themselves are
inferior, this is detestable.
(j) (Mishnah - Rebbi): We do not bring old wine; Chachamim
(k) Question: What is Rebbi's reason?
(l) Answer #1 (Chizkiyah): "La'Keves Yayin" - just like lambs
(for Musafim) must be in their first year, also the wine
(m) Objection: If so, just like lambs in their second year
are Pesulim (for Musafim), also wine!
1. Suggestion: Perhaps this is true!
(n) Answer #2 (Rava): Rebbi learns from "Al Tereh Yayin Ki
Yis'adam" (wine should be red - after one year, the
2. Rejection (Beraisa): We do not bring wine in its
second year, if it was brought it is Kosher.
i. This is like Rebbi, who forbids bringing it,
and the Beraisa is Machshir b'Diavad!
(o) (Mishnah): We do not use vines supported on poles...(only
from worked vineyards.)
(p) (Beraisa): The vineyards must be worked (to dig around
the vines) twice a year.
(q) Rav Yosef had a small orchard; he dug around the vines
twice a year, it produced (strong) wine fitting to be
diluted with twice the usual amount of water (six times
its own volume, instead of three.)
(a) (Mishnah): We do not gather the wine in large barrels
(rather, in small barrels.)
3) GUARDIANS OF YERUSHALAYIM
(b) (Beraisa): The small barrels are medium-size flasks of
(c) Version #1 (our text): We do not rest two barrels
together (lest one will spoil and cause the other to
spoil), rather, individually.
(d) Version #2 (Rambam): We stack barrels in threes (Ri
Korkus - side by side; Lechem Mishnah - one on top of the
other), not in stacks of one or two (we take from the
middle barrel, it is less exposed, it is preserved best.
(e) (Mishnah): How do we check? The Gizbar sits with a stick,
when the wine coming out turns white, he raps his stick.
(f) (Beraisa): When wine white from dregs comes out, he raps.
(g) Question: Why doesn't he tell them to stop taking wine?
(h) Answer: This supports R. Yochanan:
1. (R. Yochanan): Just like speech is good for spices
(for the Ketores), it is bad for wine.
(i) (Mishnah - R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah): Wine...
(j) Question (Rava): If one was Makdish (any) Pasul wine for
Nesachim, is he lashed for being Makdish a Ba'al Mum?
1. Since it is Pasul, this is like being Makdish a
(k) This question is not resolved.
2. Or, perhaps the Lav only applies to animals.
(l) (Beraisa): The best rams come from Mo'av, the best lambs
come from Chevron, the best calves come from Sharon, the
best birds (for Korbanos, Torim and Benei Yonah) come
from Har Ha'Melech;
(m) R. Yehudah says, we bring lambs that are as wide as their
height. (Ben Yehoyada - this is (deformed like) a midget,
it is Pasul! Rather, he means, their obesity causes them
to be taller than usual.)
(n) (Rabah bar Rav Shila): He learns from "Yir'eh
(a) Question: "(Hash-m appointed angels to guard
Yerushalayim)...Tamid Lo Yecheshu (they are never
silent)" - what do they say?
***** PEREK SHTEI MIDOS ****
(b) Answer #1 (Rabah bar Rav Shila): "Ata Sakum Terachem
(c) Answer #2 (Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): "Bone Yerushalayim
(d) Question: What did they say before the Churban?
(e) Answer (Rabah bar Rav Shila): "Ki Vachar Hash-m b'Tziyon
Ivah l'Moshav Lo".
4) THE MEASURES IN THE MIKDASH
(a) (Mishnah): There were two dry measures in the Mikdash,
Isaron and half-Isaron;
(b) R. Meir says, there were two one-Isaron measures and and
a half-Isaron measure;
(c) The Isaron was used to measure the Soles for all
1. We do not use a three-Isaron measure for (Minchas
Nesachim of) a bull, nor a two-Isaron measure for a
ram, rather, we repeatedly use the Isaron.
(d) The half-Isaron is used to measure the Chavitim, half (of
the Isaron) is brought in the morning, half in the
(e) (Gemara - Beraisa - R. Meir): "Isaron Isaron la'Keves
ha'Echad" - this teaches that there were two one-Isaron
1. One of them held an Isaron Machuk (when it was full
and any overflow was wiped away), the other held an
Isaron Gadush (heaping).
2. The Gadush Isaron was used for all Menachos, except
for Chavitim, for which the Machuk was used.
(f) Chachamim say, there was only one Isaron - "V'Isaron
Echad la'Keves ha'Echad";
5) CAN THE "SHULCHAN" BE "MEKADESH KEMATZIM"?
1. Question: If so, what do we learn from "Isaron
(g) Question: What is R. Meir's source for a half-Isaron?
2. Answer: This teaches that there is also a
(h) Answer: He learns from the first 'Vov' in "*V*'Isaron";
1. Chachamim do not expound this 'Vov'.
(i) Question: How does R. Meir expound "V'Isaron Echad
(j) Answer: This teaches that we do not use a three-Isaron
measure for a bull, nor a two-Isaron measure for a ram;
(k) Chachamim learn this from a dot over a 'Vov':
1. (Beraisa - R. Yosi): The dot over the second 'Vov'
in 'v'Isaron' in the Musaf of the first day of Sukos
teaches that we do not use a three-Isaron measure
for a bull, nor a two-Isaron measure for a ram.
(l) (Mishnah): The half-Isaron is used to measure the
2. R. Meir does not expound the dot.
(m) Question: This connotes that he measures out a
half-Isaron in his house (as opposed to bringing a full
Isaron to the Azarah and dividing it);
(n) Contradiction (Mishnah): Chavitim are not brought (to the
Mikdash) half at a time - rather, he brings a full Isaron
(of flour) and divides it.
(o) Answer (Rav Sheshes): The Mishnah means, the half-Isaron
is used to divide the Chavitim.
(p) Question (Rami bar Chama): According to R. Meir, was the
half-Isaron Machuk or Gadush?
1. Rav Chisda: Why don't you ask according to
(q) Answer (Rav Chisda): We can learn about R. Meir from (an
explicit teaching of) R. Meir, from R. Meir we learn to
2. Rami bar Chama: According to Chachamim, I ask (even)
about the Isaron, if it was Machuk or Gadush!
1. R. Meir says that the Machuk Isaron was for Chavitim
- the half-Isaron is for Chavitim, presumably it is
(r) Question (Rami bar Chama): How do we divide Chavitim in
half - by hand, or with a Kli?
2. Just like R. Meir requires both measures Mechukos
(for Chavitim), also Chachamim (since there is only
one measure of each, they are Mechukos.)
(s) Answer (Rav Chisda): Surely, by hand - if a Kli is
required (for exactness), a scale would be required (it
is most exact!)
1. Suggestion: Perhaps a scale is required!
2. Rejection: One of the curses is that people (will
use ovens together to save fuel, the bread will
break inside, they) will weigh the (pieces of) bread
with a scale (to ensure that each receives the
proper amount), it is not proper to do so.
(a) Question (Rami bar Chama): If Kematzim (of Levonah, not
in Bazichim; alternatively - of Menachos) were placed in
the Godesh of the Shulchan (its airspace, i.e. between
loaves of Lechem ha'Panim; alternatively - directly on
the Shulchan, even though it is not b'Soch (in the
interior of) the Shulchan), is this Mekadesh them?
6) THE WET MEASURES
1. Since its Godesh is Mekadesh Lechem ha'Panim, it is
also Mekadesh Kematzim;
(b) Answer (Rav Chisda): It is not Mekadesh them.
2. Or, perhaps it is only Mekadesh what should be
placed on it?
(c) (The Shulchan is one Amah wide, Tana'im argue whether
this Amah is five or six Tefachim; each loaf of Lechem
ha'Panim is 10 Tefachim long, its length is centered
along the width of the Shulchan, the excess in each
direction is folded up.)
(d) Question: But R. Yochanan taught, according to the
(first) opinion that the last two and a half Tefachim (on
each end of) each loaf is folded up, the Shulchan is
Mekadesh 15 Tefachim above its surface (the height of the
six loaves in each pile); according to the opinion that
the ends of each loaf are folded up two Tefachim, it is
Mekadesh 12 Tefachim above its surface! (Rashi Kesav Yad
- R. Yochanan need not teach that it is Mekadesh the
bread, surely he teaches that it is Mekadesh things not
fitting for it!)
(e) Answer (Rav Chisda): It is not Mekadesh them to be
offered (as if they were placed in a Bezech or Kli
Shares), it is Mekadesh them to be Nifsalim (through a
Tevul Yom or through Linah; alternatively, if a Zar put
them there, a Kohen cannot complete the Avodah even if
they are returned to the Minchah.)
(a) (Mishnah): There were seven wet measures in the Mikdash -
Hin (12 Lugim), half-Hin, third-Hin, quarter-Hin, Log,
half-Log, Revi'is (quarter-Log);
(b) R. Eliezer bar R. Tzadok says, there were notches in the
Hin showing the level (of a half, third or quarter-Hin)
needed for (oil or wine for) a bull, ram or lamb.
(Tosfos, based on Tosefta - this eliminated the need for
three Kelim, there were only four; Rashi - there were
notches for all the measures, there was only one Kli.)
(c) R. Shimon says, there was not a Hin, there is no need for
1. Rather, there was a measure of a Log and a half, to
measure the oil needed for the half of the Chavitim
offered in the morning, and for the half offered in