POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by R. Yakov Blinder
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
Ask A Question on the daf
Previous daf Moed Katan 22
MOED KATAN 22 & 23 (19-20 Cheshvan) - dedicated in memory of Chaim Mordechai
ben Harav Yisrael Azriel (Feldman) of Milwaukee by his family.
(c) Question: What if the newcomer is himself the central
figure, and the reason he is joining the other late is
that he accompanied the bier to the burial site (which
was some distance away), while the others went home after
taking leave of the bier near their house? Does the
newcomer finish with the others (because he was, after
all dealing with the deceased all the time), or does he
count seven days of his own?
1) A DISCUSSION OF R. SHIMON'S OPINION IN ABOVE BERAISA (21b, 5:a:2)
(d) Answer: He finishes with the others.
(e) Question: There is a Beraisa that says otherwise, that he
counts seven days of his own.
(f) Answer: It depends when he joins the others. If it was
during the first three days he finishes with them; if it
was after this he counts seven days of his own.
(g) Rava: When people do not go all the way to the burial
site, their mourning period begins as soon as they turn
around to go home. (But when one does go to the burial
site, the mourning doesn't start until the coffin is
(a) Rebbi: When R. Shimon said that the newcomer finishes
with the others even if he comes (from nearby) on the
seventh day, this is only if he got to the house of
mourning while there were still consolers there. If he
missed the consolers, he counts seven days of his own.
2) DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MOURNING A PARENT AND MOURNING OTHER RELATIVES
(b) Unresolved question: What if the consolers were still in
the houses, but had already gotten themselves ready to
(b) Someone said two things in the name of R. Zeira (or R.
Chiya bar Abba):
1. The Halachah is like R. Shimon ben Gamliel in regard
to Treifos (R. Shimon ben Gamliel permitted an
animal whose intestines were pierced and then
stopped up with intestinal secretions).
(c) Someone went to Israel, went to the quoted rabbi, and
asked him if these statements were true. He replied:
"Regarding Treifos I said the exact opposite, that the
Halachah is against R. Shimon ben Gamliel. Regarding
mourning, it is a disagreement of sages whether to follow
R. Shimon or not."
2. The Halachah is like R. Shimon in regard to mourning
(in the Beraisa above, 5:a:2)
(d) Final ruling: The Halachah is not like R. Shimon ben
Gamliel (regarding Treifos), but it is like R. Shimon
(regarding mourning), because we always follow the
lenient opinion in issues of mourning.
(a) For other relatives it's OK to rush the burial, but not
for a parent.
1. On Erev Shabbos or Erev Yom Tov it's OK to rush even
for a parent.
(b) For other relatives one need not cut down on his business
(done by others for him - R. Chananel; or after Shiv'ah -
Ritva), but for parents he must cut down.
(c) For other relatives one need not bare his shoulder (by
sticking his arm through the rip - R. Chananel), but for
a parent he must.
3) MOURNING FOR A GREAT RABBI
1. Rebbi once refrained from baring his shoulder for
his father because R. Yaakov bar Acha was there and
wanted to do so also (out of respect and empathy for
(d) For other relatives it's OK to have a haircut after
Shloshim, but for a parent he must wait until his friends
tell him he looks unkempt.
2. Some say this story with the names reversed, but
this is not likely because Rebbi's father was the
Nasi, and indeed everyone is supposed to bare his
shoulder for the Nasi.
(e) For other relatives it's OK to go to a celebration after
Shloshim, but for a parent it is forbidden for twelve
1. First version of Rabbah bar bar Chanah: When we say
that it's OK to go to a celebration after Shloshim
for other relatives, we only mean a social
gathering, but not a real party (like a wedding).
(f) For other relatives the rip of the Keri'ah is a tefach (a
hand's width), but for a parent the rip must be big
enough until it bears the heart.
i. Question: A Beraisa says parties AND social
gatherings are forbidden only during Shloshim.
The question remains unanswered.
2. Second version of Rabah bar bar Chanah: When we say
that it's OK to go to a celebration after (but not
before) Shloshim is over for other relatives, this
means real parties, but a social gathering is
permitted immediately after Shiv'ah.
i. Question: A Beraisa says that parties and
social gatherings are forbidden during
ii. Answer: It depends. People take turns hosting
social gatherings. If it's the mourner's turn
he may do it (during Shloshim), to fulfill his
obligation to the others. But if it's not his
turn he may not participate.
1. The Biblical source that a Keri'ah has to be a
tefach is: "And David took hold of his garments and
tore them." "Took hold" implies at least a tefach.
(g) For other relatives only the outermost garment is ripped,
but for a parent all garments being worn are ripped, even
1. The Apikarsus (a headdress that slopes down over the
shoulders and chest - Rashi/Rif) need not be ripped.
(h) For other relatives the Keri'ah may be done starting from
the neck hole (Rashi) or from below it, but for a parent
it must be done starting from the neck hole.
2. Men and women must both do Keri'ah
i. R. Shimon ben Elazar says that a woman rips the
bottom garment, turns it around, and then rips
the top garment (so as not to reveal herself).
1. R. Yehudah says that all Keri'ahs must be done
starting from the neck hole.
(i) For other relatives it's OK to baste the rip after
Shiv'ah and to sew it completely after Shloshim, but for
a parent it is forbidden to baste until after Shloshim
and it is forbidden to sew it completely forever. A woman
may baste the rip immediately, for modesty.
2. The Biblical source for R. Yehudah is: "He took hold
of his garments and tore them into two" implying
that the rip actually tore open the garment in two.
(j) R. Yochanan adds: For other relatives it's OK to rip with
an implement (knife, razor, etc.), but for a parent it
must be done with the bare hand.
(k) R. Yochanan adds: For other relatives it's OK to do the
rip "inside" (Rashi: on an inner garment; others: in
private, where no one sees), but for a parent it must be
done "outside" (on the outer garment, or in public).
(a) R. Chisda: For a Nasi one must do Keri'ah "outside" (see
1. Question: A Beraisa says that the mourning held for
great rabbis is like the mourning for parents only
in respect to the prohibition to sew up the rip (see
above, 2:i), implying that in other respects
mourning a great rabbi is not equated to mourning a
parent. (The rip should therefore be allowed to be
(b) Here there is a story with R. Chisda and R. Chanan and
the death of a Nasi.
2. Answer: The Beraisa is talking about other great
rabbis, not a Nasi.
(c) For a rabbi the right shoulder is bared; for an Av Beis
Din the left shoulder is bared; for a Nasi both shoulders
(d) Here there is a Beraisa about mourning for rabbis. It
makes several points.
1. When a rabbi dies his Beis Midrash (yeshiva) stops
2. When an Av Beis Din dies all Batei Midrashos in town
stop their learning.
3. When a Nasi dies all Batei Midrashos in all places
stop their learning. Furthermore, minyanim are not
held that Shabbos for prayers, only for reading the
Torah. (The rest of the day people should sit around
being sad, not take strolls.)
4. One should not give Torah lessons (halachah or
Aggadah) in a mourner's house. But R. Chananyah ben
Gamliel did do this.