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Pesachim 89

1) BRINGING A "MOSAR PESACH" IN PLACE OF A DOUBTFUL KORBAN PESACH

QUESTION: The Gemara discusses what one should do when he is not certain that his Korban Pesach was brought. Five people brought their Korbanos and it was discovered that one of the Korbanos was Pasul but they do not know which one. The Gemara says that they are all Patur from bringing another Korban Pesach on Pesach Sheni because there is nothing they can do. The Gemara asks that there still might be something they can do. They should each bring a Mosar Pesach, stipulating that "if I am Chayav to bring a Korban Pesach, then this animal is a Pesach, and if I am not Chayav to bring a Korban Pesach, then this animal is a Mosar Pesach" which is a Shelamim that is eaten for one day and one night. By making a condition on an animal which is a Mosar Pesach, they avoid the problem of decreasing the amount of time in which it may be eaten (that is the reason why they may not bring a Shelamim, which is normally eaten for two days and a night).

Why does the Gemara assume that such a condition will help? It is true that the Mosar Pesach is eaten for one day and one night, but the Korban Pesach - - according to Rebbi Elazar ben Azaryah -- is eaten only until Chatzos (midnight), and not for a day and a night! TOSFOS (Zevachim 57b, Megilah 21a) rules like Rebbi Elazar ben Azaryah. Consequently, if the Korban becomes a Korban Pesach, one is decreasing the amount of time in which the Korban may be eaten. The Gemara should have said that this option of bringing a Mosar Pesach will not work because the Beraisa holds like Rebbi Elazar ben Azaryah, and therefore one is still decreasing the amount of time to eat the Korban. The Mosar Pesach is eaten for a day and a night (because it is compared to a Korban Todah, Zevachim 36a), while the Pesach itself may only be eaten during the night until midnight! (YESHU'OS YAKOV, OC 477:1)

ANSWERS:

(a) The YESHU'OS YAKOV answers that this Gemara supports the RAMBAM who rules like Rebbi Akiva, that the Korban Pesach may be eaten all night and not just until Chatzos.

(b) The OR SAME'ACH (Hilchos Chametz u'Matzah 6:1) says that even according to Rebbi Elazar ben Azaryah, one may eat the Korban Pesach after Chatzos. However, when one eats it after Chatzos he does not fulfill the Mitzvah of eating the Korban Pesach; he is merely considered to be eating Kodshim Kalim. Therefore, when one makes a Mosar Pesach into a Korban Pesach, he is not decreasing the amount of time in which it may be eaten. (The Or Same'ach, though, questions his own approach from the Gemara in Pesachim (71a, 120b) which seems to say clearly that the meat of the Korban Pesach becomes Pasul at Chatzos. He answers b'Dochek)

(c) The TORAS KOHANIM (Dibura d'Nedavah Perek 18 #4) states that the Mosar Pesach is eaten during the day and night "k'Techilas Hekdesho" -- because it was originally sanctified for that purpose. It seems from there that it is not just a Gezeiras ha'Kasuv that the Mosar Pesach is eaten for a day and a night, but that there is logic behind it. Just like the Korban Pesach is sanctified to be eaten until the end of the night, so, too, the Mosar Pesach is sanctified to be eaten during the day and night. If so, according to Rebbi Elazar ben Azaryah, the Mosar Pesach, too, will only be eaten until Chatzos. When the Gemara in Zevachim (36a) compares the Mosar Pesach to a Korban Todah, it is teaching only that the Mosar Pesach is not eaten for two days. (M. Kornfeld)

89b

QUESTION: Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua left the meal he was sharing with Rav Papa when he saw that Rav Papa ate four times more than he did, and he went to join Ravina. When he saw that Ravina was eating *eight* times more than he, he declared, "Give me one hundred Rav Papas instead of one Ravina!"

What was the point of his exaggeration? Obviously, one loses much less when he eats with one person who eats eight times more than he, than when one eats with a hundred people who each eat four times more!

ANSWER: Rav Huna did not mean that there will be more left over for him to eat if he eats with one hundred Rav Papas than if he eats with one Ravina. Rather, he meant that economically, it is more profitable to eat with one hundred Rav Papas than with one Ravina. How is this?

The key to understanding Rav Huna's exclamation is the following point: the more people with which one makes a partnership, *the less one pays* relative to the total value of the food.

When one makes a partnership with one other person who eats four times more than he does, they pay together for 5 portions, thus each one entitled to 2 1/2 portions. However, the one who eats four times more ends up eating 4 portions, while the other person is left with only 1 portion, receiving 1 1/2 portions less than what he was entitled to receive. In other words, he loses 60% of what he should have received. If he makes a partnership with *two* people who each eat four times as much as he eats, then each person pays for 3 portions, but the larger eaters each receive 4 portions and the smaller eater receives 1. He loses 2 out of the 3 to which he was entitled, or 67%. In such a manner, the more "eaters" one joins in his partnership, the more he loses.

However, even if he joins with 100 people who each eat four times more than he ("100 Rav Papas"), he will still not lose as large of a percentage as he would lose by eating with a single Ravina. With many Rav Papas, his loss will never be more than 75% of his portion, because if he were to eat four times more than he is eating now he would be eating as much as each Rav Papa. However, with one Ravina, out of the 9 portions available, he only receives 1 instead of the 4 1/2 which he pays for; he loses 3 1/2 portions out of 4 1/2, or 77%. Therefore, Rav Huna rightly complained that he would be better off with 100 Rav Papas than with one Ravina! (MIRKEVES HA'MISHNAH, in his "Bereichos b'Cheshbon," a collection of mathematical insights into the Talmud)