Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) TANA D'VEI MENASHEH

(a) Question: If Tana d'vei Menasheh expounds the verse "Va'Ytzav", he should include Dinim and blasphemy; if he does not expound it, how does he know the other five (which were derived from the verse)?
(b) Answer: He does not expound it; all seven Mitzvos are written elsewhere:

1. Idolatry and Arayos - "Va'Tishaches ha'Aretz Lifnei ha'Elokim".

i. (Tana d'vei R. Yishmael): "Hashchasah" always refers to Arayos and idolatry:
ii. Arayos - as it says "Ki Hishchis Kol Basar Es Darko";
iii. Idolatry - "Pen Tashchisun va'Asisem Pesel".
iv. The Tana who learns from "Va'Ytzav Hash-m..." says that the Torah merely discusses the generation of the flood, these are not commandments.

2. Murder - "Shofech Dam ha'Adam...";

i. The other Tana says that this comes to teach about the punishment - the verse continues "...Ba'Adam Damo Yishafech";

3. Theft - "K'Yerek Esev Nosati Lachem Es Kol";

i. (R. Levi): This permits what is like Yerek Esev (that grows by itself, i.e. Hefker), not what grows in gardens.
ii. The other Tana says that this comes to permit eating meat (which was forbidden before this).

4. A limb of a living animal - "Ach Basar b'Nafsho Damo Lo Sochelu";

i. The other Tana says that this comes to permit Sheratzim (rodents, even before they die).

5. Castration - "Shirtzu va'Aretz u'Rvu Vah";

i. The other Tana says that this is a blessing, not a Mitzvah.

6. Kilayim - "Meha'Of l'Minehu";

i. The other Tana says that the birds (and animals) in the ark were according to their species, for this is the best companionship, we may not derive a prohibition of mating diverse species.

(a) (Rav Yosef): A Ben No'ach has three Chayavei Misah - Arayos, murder and blasphemy.
(b) Objection (Rav Sheshes): Granted, we learn murder from "Shofech Dam ha'Adam ba'Adam Damo Yishafech" - what is the source for the other two?

1. If you learn from murder, he should be liable for all his Mitzvos!
2. If they are included because it says "Ish Ish" - it also says this regarding idolatry!

(c) (Rav Sheshes): Rather, he has four Chayavei Misah - these and idolatry.
(d) Question: He is not killed for idolatry!

1. (Beraisa): Regarding idolatry, a Nochri is commanded only about things which a Yisrael is killed for.
2. Inference: He is *commanded*, he is not killed for it!

(e) (Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): Anything a Ben No'ach is commanded, he is Chayav Misah if he transgresses it.
(f) (Rav Huna and all Rav's Talmidim): He is Chayav Misah for any of his seven Mitzvos - the Torah taught about one of them, the same applies to all of them.
(g) Question: He is not killed for theft!

1. (Beraisa): Regarding robbery, theft, taking a Yafes To'ar (another man's wife in war, this also resembles theft) and everything like this:

i. If a Nochri takes from a Nochri or from a Yisrael, it is forbidden; a Yisrael is permitted to take from a Nochri.

2. If a Nochri is Chayav Misah for this, it should say so (and not just that he is forbidden)!

(h) Answer: He is Chayav Misah - it says 'forbidden' on account of the next clause, a Yisrael is *permitted*.
(i) Question: Whenever he is liable, the Tana says so!

1. (Beginning of the Beraisa): If a Nochri kills a Nochri or a Yisrael, he is liable;

i. If a Yisrael kills a Nochri, he is exempt.

(j) Answer: There, there was no other way to teach!

1. Suggestion: Perhaps it could say 'a Nochri is forbidden, a Yisrael is permitted'.
2. Rejection (Beraisa): Nochrim and people that graze (their own) small animals (they constantly steal by grazing on others' property): we do not throw them into a pit (to actively kill them), nor do we raise them from a pit to save them.

(k) Question: The Beraisa alludes to a similar case regarding robbery - what is it?
(l) Answer #1 (Rav Acha bar Yakov): This teaches about a worker (eating) in a vineyard.

1. Question: When is he eating?

i. If when the fruit is finished - he is permitted to eat!
ii. If the fruit is not finished - this is fully-fledged theft!

2. Answer (Rav Papa): The case is, he eats less than the value of a Perutah.
3. Question: If so, why is it forbidden for a Nochri to eat from a Yisrael - a Yisrael pardons less than the value of a Perutah!
4. Answer: Later, he pardons; initially, it bothers him.
5. Objection: When a Nochri eats from a Nochri, since Nochrim do not pardon less than the value of a Perutah, this is fully-fledged theft!

(m) Answer #2 (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Ika): The case is, he withheld wages:

1. If a Nochri withheld wages from a Nochri or from a Yisrael, it is forbidden; a Yisrael is permitted to withhold wages from a Nochri.

(n) Question: What is the case similar to a Yafes To'ar?
(o) Answer (Rav Dimi): If a Nochri had relations with a female slave designated for a male slave, he is killed (for this is like stealing).
(p) Observation: The Tana did not say that there is a similar case regarding murder.
(q) (Abaye): If one finds a Beraisa teaching such a case, it is R. Yonason ben Sha'ul.

1. (Beraisa - R. Yonason ben Sha'ul): If Reuven was chasing Shimon (to kill him), and Shimon could have stopped him by maiming one of his limbs, but he instead killed him, Shimon is (Rambam - worthy of being) killed for this.

3) CONDEMNING A BEN NO'ACH

(a) (R. Yakov bar Acha - Sefer Agadata): A Ben No'ach can be sentenced to death by one judge, based on one witness, without warning;

1. The judge (or witness) cannot be a woman; he can be a relative.

(b) (R. Yishmael): A Ben No'ach is killed for killing a fetus.
(c) Question: What is the source of R. Yakov's law?
(d) Answer (Rav Yehudah): "Ach Es Dimchem l'Nafshoseichem *Edrosh* (singular)" - even through one judge; "Mi'Yad Kol Chayah" - without warning; "Edreshenu umi'Yad ha'Adam" - through one witness; "Mi'Yad Ish" - not through a woman; "Achiv" - even through a relative.
(e) Question: What is the source of R. Yishmael's law?
(f) Answer: "Shofech Dam *ha'Adam ba'Adam* Damo Yishafech" - the case of a person in a person is a fetus.
(g) The first Tana holds like Tana d'vei Menasheh, who says that a Ben No'ach is always choked;

1. He expounds "Ba'Adam Damo Yishafech" - he blood will remain inside his body, i.e. he will be choked.

(h) Question (Rav Hamnuna): Is it really true that the Mitzvos do not apply to a Bas No'ach?!

1. But it says "(Avraham)...Yetzaveh (Es Banav v'Es Beiso, his sons and daughters)"!

(i) Answer (Rav Hamnuna): He will command his sons about laws, and his daughters about Tzedakah.
(j) Question (Rav Avya Sava): "Mi'Yad Ish" - not a woman - if a Bas No'ach killed, is she exempt?!
(k) Answer (Rav Papa): "Shofech Dam ha'Adam..." - in any case (male or female), the murderer will be killed.
(l) Question (Rav Avya Sava): "Al Ken Ya'azov *Ish* (...v'Davak b'Ishto)" - if a Bas No'ach was Mezanah, is she exempt?!
(m) Answer (Rav Papa): "Ve'Hayu l'Basar Echad" - the Torah equates men and women.

(a) (Beraisa): "Ish Ish (...Lo Sikrevu Legalos Ervah)" - this includes Nochrim (they are commanded about Arayos).
(b) Question: We expounded "Leimor" to teach (that Nochrim are commanded) about Arayos!
(c) Answer: This teaches about their Arayos, "Ish Ish" teaches about ours.
(d) (End of the Beraisa): If a Nochri had relations with Arayos of Yisrael, he is judged according to laws of Yisrael.
(e) Question: How does this make a difference?
(f) Answer #1 (Rav Nachman): Twenty-three judges, two witnesses and warning are needed to convict him.
(g) Objection: It is unreasonable to say that it is harder to convict him for our Arayos than for theirs!
(h) Answer #2 (R. Yochanan): This teaches about a Mekudeshes Na'arah, which does not apply to them (therefore, he is stoned, according to our law).
(i) Question (Beraisa): If a Nochri had relations with a Mekudeshes Na'arah, he is stoned; if he had relations with a married woman (Nesu'ah), he is choked.

1. Since Nesu'ah applies to Nochrim, he should receive his usual death, beheading!

(j) Answer #1 (Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): When the Beraisa discusses a married woman, it refers to a woman that had Chupah but did not yet have relations with her husband;

1. Since this does not apply to Nochrim, he receives the law of Yisrael, choking.
2. (R. Chanina): Be'ulas Ba'al (a Nochris who had relations with her husband) applies to Nochrim, a Nochris who had Chupah but did not yet have relations with her husband is still considered single.

(k) Support (for R. Yochanan - Beraisa - R. Meir): A Nochri is only commanded about Arayos that a Yisrael is killed for;
(l) Chachamim say, he is commanded about many Arayos (Gra's text - an Ervah) that Yisraelim are not killed for;

1. If he had relations with Arayos of (i.e. only apply to) Yisrael, he is judged by laws of Yisrael; if he had relations with Arayos of Nochrim, he is judged by laws of Nochrim.
2. The only case (of Arayos of Yisrael) is a Mekudeshes Na'arah.
3. Question: Why doesn't it also list a woman who had Chupah but did not yet have relations with her husband?
4. Answer: The Tana holds like Tana d'vei Menasheh, who says that a Ben No'ach is always choked - it makes no difference whether he is judged by our law or theirs.