Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) THE AGE OF "BEN SORER U'MOREH"

(a) Question (Abaye - Beraisa): "Ish (that will have relations with a Shifchah Charufah (a semi-married slave) in a way fitting to eject semen)" - one might have thought, this only applies to an Ish;

1. Question: How do we know to include a nine year-old boy, who is fitting to have relations?
2. Answer: "*V*'Ish".

(b) Answer (Rabah): A nine year-old is fit to have relations (with semen), but it will not lead to a child, just like grain less than a third grown (it has seeds, but they will not sprout).
(c) (D'vei Chizkiyah): "V'Chi Yazid Ish" - an Ish 'cooks' his seed (making it fitting to produce a child) before ejecting it, a minor does not.
(d) Question (Rav Mordechai): How do we know that 'Mezid' connotes cooking?
(e) Answer (Rav Ashi): "Va'Yazed Yakov Nazid".
(f) Question (Beraisa - Tana d'vei R. Yishmael): "Ben" - not a father.

1. Question: What is the case (that the Torah must exclude a father from becoming a Ben Sorer u'Moreh)?

i. Suggestion: He impregnated his wife (or any woman) after he became an adult, she gave birth before his (lower) beard filled out.
ii. Rejection: R. Kruspedai taught, a boy is fit to become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh during only (the first) three months (of his adulthood - pregnancy is always more than six months)!

2. Answer: We must say, he impregnated her (more than three months) before he was an adult, she gave birth before his beard filled out - this proves that a minor can father children!

(g) Answer (and Answer #2 to Question (1)): Really, he impregnated her after he became an adult, she gave birth after his beard filled out.
(h) Question: But the birth must be more than six months into his adulthood, Ben Sorer u'Moreh only applies during the first three months!
(i) Answer (Rav Dimi): Tana d'vei R. Yishmael teaches that he cannot become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh once he is *fitting to be called* a father (i.e. his wife could be visibly pregnant, i.e. three months after he became an adult).
(j) (R. Kruspedai): A boy is fit to become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh during only three months.
(k) Question (Mishnah): A boy can become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh from the time he brings two hairs until his beard fills out.
(l) Answer: He cannot become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh once his beard fills out *or* after three months into his adulthood.

(a) (R. Yakov of Nehar Pekod citing Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua): We learn from R. Kruspedai that if a woman will give birth after seven months, she will not be recognizably pregnant (like most women are) after a third of the pregnancy;

1. If she would be, a boy would be too old to be a Ben Sorer u'Moreh two and a third months after becoming an adult (for he could be called a father)!

(b) Rejection (Ravina): Perhaps she is recognizably pregnant after a third, but the law of Ben Sorer u'Moreh is based on the majority (most babies are born after nine months).
(c) (Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua (after he heard this)): We do not follow the majority in capital cases - "V'Shaftu ha'Edah v'Hatzilu ha'Edah", if we can find a reason to exempt (e.g. he could be called a father), we do!
(d) Rejection #1 (Ravina): We do follow the majority!

1. (Mishnah): If one witness says 'It was the second of the month', the other says 'It was the third', their testimony stands - we assume that the first heard that the month was Me'ubar, and the latter did not (therefore, he thought it was the third).

i. If we would not follow the majority (most people sometimes err about which day was Rosh Chodesh), we would say that neither errs, they refer to different days and the testimony is invalid!

(e) Rejection #2 (R. Yirmeyah mi'Difti - Mishnah): The following apply to a girl above three years:

1. She can become Mekudeshes through relations; if she fell to Yibum and did Yibum, it takes effect;
2. Anyone (except her husband) is liable for her on account of a married woman, one who has relations with her (when she is Nidah) is Metamei a mattress under him like a vessel above (and touching a Zav);
3. If she marries a Kohen, she may eat Terumah; if a Pasul had relations with her, she is disqualified from Kehunah;
4. If any of the Arayos had relations with her, he is killed, she is exempt.

5. Why can we kill - we should be concerned that she is an Ailonis, her husband never intended to Mekadesh an Ailonis, her Kidushin is invalid!
6. We must say that we follow the majority, most women are not Ailoniyos!

(f) Rejection (of this rejection): No - one who has relations with her is liable to bring a Korban on account of a married woman (if he was Shogeg, but we would not rely on the majority to kill him).

1. Question: But it says, men are killed for (relations with) her!
2. Answer: This refers to her father (he is liable whether or not she is married).
3. Question: But it says that any of the Arayos are killed on account of her!
4. Answer: The case is, her husband agreed to Mekadesh her even if she is an Ailonis.

(g) (Beraisa - Beis Shamai): If a woman was sporting with her son and he did Ha'ara'ah, she is disqualified from Kehunah;

1. Beis Hillel say, she is permitted.

(h) (Rav Chisda): All agree that relations of a nine year-old boy are considered relations; if he is less than eight, they are not considered relations;

1. They argue about a boy between eight and nine - Beis Shamai learn from previous generations (an eight year-old could father a child), Beis Hillel do not.

(i) Question: What is the source that an eight year-old could father a child?
(j) Answer #1: We learn from the ancestry of Shlomo:

1. Shlomo was seven years old when Achitofel (his great grandfather) died;
2. (Beraisa): "Anshei Damim u'Mirmah Lo Yechetzu Yemeihem" (to live even 35 years, half a normal lifetime) - Do'eg lived 34 years, Achitofel lived 33.
3. Shlomo was born when Achitofel was 26 - if we assume that each of the three generations was eight and two-thirds years apart, and allow about eight months for each pregnancy, each generation fathered the next at (about) the age of eight!

(k) Rejection: Perhaps the generations were not evenly spaced, rather, Bas Sheva was six when she became pregnant with Shlomo, her grandfather and father were each nine when they fathered (her father and Bas Sheva);

1. Women are healthier than men, they are able to have children earlier.
2. Support: Bas Sheva had a child (i.e. the one that died) even before Shlomo.

(l) Answer #1: We learn from the birth of Sarah.

1. "Terach Holid Es Avraham Es Nachor v'Es Haran" - allowing a year between each, Avraham was two years older than Haran;
2. (R. Yitzchak): Avraham's wife Yiskah is Sarah - she is called Yiskah because she was Socheh (saw) with Ru'ach ha'Kodesh - "Kol Asher Tomar Elecha Sarah Shma b'Kolah".

i. Also, she is called Yiskah because everyone used to look at her beauty.

3. "...Hal'Ven Me'ah...Sarah ha'Vas Tish'im" - Avraham was 10 years older than Sarah, he was two years older than her father, i.e. Haran was eight when she was born!

(m) Rejection: Perhaps Avraham was younger than Haran, the Torah lists them in order of Chachmah.
(n) Support: The Torah lists No'ach's children in order of their Chachmah!

1. "No'ach (was 500 years old) va'Yoled No'ach Es Shem Es Cham v'Es Yafes";
2. The flood came 100 years later (No'ach was 600), and "Shem Ben Me'as Shanah...Shenasayim Achar ha'Mabul".
3. If Shem was the firstborn, he should have been 102!
4. Rather, we must say that the Torah lists them in order of Chachmah.

(o) Answer #3: We learn from the ancestry of Betzalel:

1. Betzalel was (at least) 13 when he made the Mishkan for it says "Ish Ish mi'Melachto";
2. The Mishkan was made in the first year (that we left Miztrayim), in the second year it was erected and the Meraglim were sent;
3. Kalev, the great grandfather of Betzalel, was 40 when he went with the Meraglim, i.e. he was 26 when Betzalel was born.
4. The generations were (on the average) eight and two-thirds years apart - allowing eight months for each pregnancy, each generation fathered the next at eight years! (All were men - even if they were not evenly spaced, at least one of them fathered a son wen he was no more than eight.)

(a) (Mishnah): A son, not a daughter.
(b) (Beraisa - R. Shimon): The Parshah of Ben Sorer u'Moreh should also apply to a girl - if she gets addicted to meat and wine, she will become a harlot to support her habit;

1. The Torah decreed that it only applies to boys.