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1) OTHER CASES OF "LAMED MI'LAMED" (cont.)

(a) A Hekesh can teach through Kal va'Chomer;

1. We learn this from Tana d'vei R. Yishmael (41A).

(b) Question: Can a Hekesh teach through Binyan Av?
(c) Answer (R. Yirmeyah) Question: Why did the Torah need to (make a Hekesh to) teach that Asham is slaughtered in Tzafon - we should be able to learn this from a Binyan Av from Chatas!

1. Answer: Since the Torah made such a Hekesh, this teaches that something learned from a Hekesh (e.g. that Chatas is slaughtered in Tzafon) cannot teach through Binyan Av!

(d) Rejection: If so, why can't we learn from a Binyan Av from Olah (in which it explicitly says that it must be slaughtered in Tzafon)?!

1. You must say, we cannot learn because there is a Pirchah - Olah is Kalil (totally consumed on the Mizbe'ach, and Asham is not);
2. Likewise, (even if we normally could learn a Binyan Av from a Hekesh), we cannot learn from Chatas, for it atones for Chayavei Kerisus!

(e) Suggestion: There are Pirchos that would stop us from learning Asham from Olah or Chatas, even if Tzafon was explicit in both of these - perhaps the Torah could have written Tzafon regarding two of these, and we would learn the third from them!
(f) Rejection: We could not learn any one from the others:

1. We could not learn Olah from Chatas and Asham, they are Mechaper (more than Olah)!
2. We could not learn Chatas from Olah and Asham, they are males!
3. We could not learn Asham from Olah and Chatas, they are also brought for Korbanos Tzibur!

(g) Question: Can a Gezerah Shavah teach through a Hekesh?
(h) Answer (Rav Papa) "V'Zos Toras Zevach ha'Shelamim...Im Al Todah" - this teaches that Todah may be brought from money of Ma'aser Sheni, just like Shelamim;

1. We learned Shelamim from a Gezerah Shavah "Sham-Sham" from Ma'aser.

(i) Objection (Mar Zutra brei d'Rav Mari): But Ma'aser Sheni is Chulin (all agree that we learn Lamed mi'Lamed in Chulin)!
(j) Answer (Rav Papa): (I hold that) we consider the Lamed, and it is Kodesh.
(k) Question: Can a Gezerah Shavah teach through a Gezerah Shavah?
(l) Answer #1 (Rami bar Chama - Beraisa): "V'Soles Murbeches (is brought with a Todah)" - this teaches that Revuchah (Matza loaves in which the flour is first scalded in boiling water) is made from Soles (choice flour);

1. We learn Chalos (regular Matza loaves) from a Gezerah Shavah "Chalos-Chalos" to Revuchah;
2. We learn Rekikin (Matza wafers) from a Gezerah Shavah "Matzos-Matzos" to Chalos.

(m) Objection (Ravina): Perhaps the Gezerah Shavah "Matzos-Matzos" equates Rekikin to Chalos of Ma'afe Tanur (of Minchas Nedavah - there, it explicitly says Soles)!
(n) Answer #2 (Rava - Beraisa): "V'Kirbo u'Firsho Vehotzi" - this teaches that the Par Mashu'ach is taken intact outside Yerushalayim to be burned;

1. Suggestion: Perhaps it is burned intact!
2. Rejection: It says "Rosho" and "Kera'av" regarding Par Mashu'ach, like it says regarding Olah - just as there, it is dissected, also here.
3. Suggestion: Perhaps we flay the skin, just as we flay an Olah!
4. Rejection: "V'Kirbo u'Firsho".

i. Question: How do we learn this from "V'Kirbo u'Firsho"?
ii. Answer (Rav Papa): (Earlier, the verse mentions the Or (skin) and Basar -) just as the Peresh (excrement in the intestines) is left inside (it would be disgraceful to remove it), also the meat is left inside its skin.

5. (Beraisa - Rebbi): Regarding Par Yom Kipur, it mentions Or, Basar and Peresh, as it does regarding Par Mashu'ach - just as Par M hg0ashu'ach is dissected but not flayed, also Par Yom Kipur. (We learn from a Gezerah Shavah, and Par Mashu'ach itself was learned from a Gezerah Shavah to Olah.)

2) LEARNING THE 13 "MIDOS" FROM EACH OTHER

(a) Question: Can a Gezerah Shavah teach through a Kal va'Chomer?
(b) Answer #1: A Kal va'Chomer teaches that it can!

1. We cannot learn Hekesh mi'Hekesh (we learn this from Ravina or Rava), yet a Hekesh can teach through a Kal va'Chomer (we learn this from Tana d'vei R. Yishmael);
2. A Gezerah Shavah can teach through a Hekesh (as Rav Papa taught), all the more so it can teach through a Kal va'Chomer!

(c) Question: This is according to Rav Papa, who says that we consider the Lamed - but according to the opinion that we consider the source, we have no source that a Gezerah Shavah can teach through a Hekesh (in Kodshim)!
(d) Answer #2: We learn the Kal va'Chomer as follows:

1. A Hekesh cannot teach through Hekesh (Shitah Mekubetzes - nor Gezerah Shavah), it can teach through a Kal va'Chomer;
2. A Gezerah Shavah can teach through another Gezerah Shavah (as Rami bar Chama taught), all the more so it can teach through a Kal va'Chomer!

(e) Question: Can a Gezerah Shavah teach through a Binyan Av?
(f) This question is not resolved.
(g) Question: Can a Kal va'Chomer teach through a Hekesh?
(h) Answer: A Kal va'Chomer teaches that it can!

1. A Hekesh cannot teach through Gezerah Shavah (as R. Yochanan taught), yet a Gezerah Shavah can teach through a Hekesh (according to Rav Papa);
2. A Hekesh can teach through Kal va'Chomer, all the more so Kal va'Chomer can teach through a Hekesh!

(i) Question: This is according to Rav Papa - but according to the opinion that we consider the source, how can we answer?
(j) This question is not resolved.
(k) Question: Can a Kal va'Chomer teach through a Gezerah Shavah?
(l) Answer: A Kal va'Chomer teaches that it can!

1. A Gezerah Shavah cannot be learned from (something learned from) a Hekesh, yet it can teach through a Gezerah Shavah;
2. A Kal va'Chomer can be learned from a Hekesh, all the more so it can teach through a Gezerah Shavah!

(m) Question: Can a Kal va'Chomer teach through a Kal va'Chomer?
(n) Answer #1: A Kal va'Chomer teaches that it can!

1. A Gezerah Shavah cannot be learned from a Hekesh, yet it can teach through a Kal va'Chomer (answers (b) and (d) above);
2. A Kal va'Chomer can be learned from a Hekesh, all the more so it can teach through a Kal va'Chomer!
3. This Kal va'Chomer is 'the son of' (i.e. derived from) a Kal va'Chomer.

(o) Objection: This is the grandson of a Kal va'Chomer! (Rashi - one of the sources (1) was itself learned from a Kal va'Chomer ((b) or (d)) - perhaps we do not learn from something so far removed; Tosfos - we cannot use two Kal va'Chomers to show that we can derive laws from two Kal va'Chomers.)
(p) Answer #2: A Kal va'Chomer (that does not rely on another Kal va'Chomer) teaches that it can!

1. We cannot learn Hekesh mi'Hekesh, yet Hekesh can teach through a Kal va'Chomer;
2. A Kal va'Chomer can be learned from a Hekesh, all the more so it can teach through a Kal va'Chomer!
3. This Kal va'Chomer is the son of a Kal va'Chomer.

(q) Question: Can a Kal va'Chomer teach through a Binyan Av?
(r) Answer (R. Yirmeyah - Beraisa - R. Meir): If a bird was found to be Treifah after Melikah was done, (it is not a Neveilah,) it does not have Tum'as Beis ha'Bli'ah (to Metamei one who swallows a k'Zayis of it and his garments);

1. R. Yehudah says, it (and even a slaughtered Treifah bird) has Tum'as Beis ha'Bli'ah.
2. R. Meir: A Kal va'Chomer teaches that it does not! Tum'as Neveilah of a Behemah is more severe than that of a bird, it is Metamei one who moves or touches it, yet slaughter is Metaher a Treifah (i.e. it prevents it from becoming Neveilah) - Nivlas Of is not Metamei one who moves or touches it, all the more so slaughter is Metaher a Treifah;

i. Slaughter (of a healthy bird) permits eating it, it is Metaher a Treifah bird - the same applies to Melikah!

3. R. Yosi says, Dayo (we cannot learn more than (either of) the sources of the Kal va'Chomer) - slaughter is Metaher it, as we find regarding Behemos, but not Melikah.

(s) Rejection: The Kal va'Chomer does not teach through a Binyan Av (rather, through a Hekesh of birds and animals); also, even if it was a Binyan Av, it would not answer our question, since we learn from Chulin (Rashi - according to the opinion that we are concerned when the source is Kodshim; Shitah Mekubetzes - all agree that we can learn one Midah from another when only one of the sources or Limudim is Kodesh and two are Chulin).