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Ta'anis 4

1) ASKING FOR RAIN "NEAR THE TIME OF THE RAINS"

QUESTION: The Mishnah (2a) states that "we only ask (Sho'alin) for rain near the time of the rains." The Gemara initially assumed that "She'eilah" is the same as "Hazkarah" (mentioning "Morid ha'Geshem" in the beginning of Shemoneh Esreh), and thus the Mishnah is saying that "Morid ha'Geshem" is recited only near the time of the rains. The Gemara says that this statement of the Mishnah must have been made by Rebbi Yehoshua, who says that the Hazkarah of rain is recited from the time that the Lulav is placed down (on the seventh day of Sukos), because that day is near the time that we need rain, which begins right after the festival.

If the Gemara is looking for an opinion that says we recite the Hazkarah near the time that we need rain, why does the Gemara quote the statement of Rebbi Yehoshua of the Beraisa (on 2b) who says that Hazkarah is said at the time the Lulav is placed down? It would be more appropriate to quote the Rebbi Yehoshua mentioned earlier in this very Mishnah (2a), who says that we begin saying Hazkarah on Shemini Atzeres, which is clearly near the time that we need rain! Whether the opinion of Rebbi Yehoshua in our Mishnah is the same as that of Rebbi Yehoshua of the Beraisa, or it is the opinion of a different Tana who argues, makes no difference; there is no point in mentioning the words of Rebbi Yehoshua of the Beraisa when we could just as well have cited the Rebbi Yehoshua of this very same Mishnah which the Gemara is discussing! Why does the Gemara go out of its way to quote an opinion from a Beraisa?

ANSWERS:

(a) The GEVURAS ARI explains that Rebbi Yehoshua of the Beraisa argues with Rebbi Yehoshua of the Mishnah (as we mentioned in Insights to 3a) and holds that the Hazkarah of rain begins on the seventh day, as opposed to the eighth day, Shmini Atzeres. When the Mishnah says that the Hazkarah begins "*near* to the time of the rains," it implies that we begin saying the Hazkarah for rain *before* the rains are wanted, at a time when we do not yet need rain. The rains are wanted starting from Shemini Atzeres -- when the people are no longer sitting in the Sukah. According to Rebbi Yehoshua of the Mishnah, who says that the Hazkarah begins on the eighth day (on Shemini Atzeres), the Mishnah should not say that we begin asking for rain "*near* the time of the rains." The Hazkarah begins *on* the day, and not before the day, that rain is needed! Therefore, the Gemara understands that the words of this Mishnah, "near the time of the rains," are alluding to a different opinion -- that of Rebbi Yehoshua of the Beraisa, who says that the Hazkarah begins on the seventh day, while we are still sitting in the Sukah.

The NETZIV suggests that this might be what Rashi means here as well, when he says that the time of placing down the Lulav is "the eighth day." Rashi seems to contradict what he wrote earlier (on 2b and 3a), that the time of Hanachas Lulav is the *seventh* day. Why, here, does he say that it is the eighth day? The answer is that when Rashi says the eighth day, he is not explaining when the time of Hanachas Lulav is; rather, he is explaining when the time of the *rains* is! (This would be more convincing if the words "d'Hainu Yom Shmini" should actually be three words later, after the words "Samuch l'Geshamim," and not before them.)

(b) According to where the words of Rashi are placed in our printing, Rashi does not seem to be referring to the time when rain is needed, as the Netziv explains. But how can he say that the time of Hanachas Lulav is the eighth day, when elsewhere he says that it is the seventh day? It could be that the Beraisa holds that the time of Hanachas Lulav must be the seventh day (as we proved earlier, see Insights to 3a). Here, though, the Gemara is using the phrase "mi'She'as Hanachaso" the way the Yerushalmi uses it -- to describe the *eighth* day, because the Gemara here is referring to Rebbi Yehoshua of the Mishnah (as the statement quoted is from the Mishnah), and not to Rebbi Yehoshua of the Beraisa. Therefore, Rashi here is not contradicting what he wrote earlier, but rather here he is explaining that the Gemara is using the phrase "mi'She'as Hanachaso" the way that the Yerushalmi uses it.

Why does the Gemara, though, use these words to refer to the eighth day, and not simply say "the last day of Yom Tov?" The answer could be that the Gemara wants to explain why the eighth day is considered the time for rain. It is explaining that the fact that we no longer hold the Lulav indicates that the Mitzvos of Sukos have passed, including the Mitzvah to live in the Sukah. Since no one is in the Sukah anymore, it is now the time for rains. (DIKDUKEI SOFRIM 3a, #400).

(c) RABEINU CHANANEL, RABEINU GERSHOM, and the RITVA have an entirely different understanding of the Gemara. They say that the inference of the Gemara is not that we begin saying the Hazkarah for rain near the time that we need rain, but rather, since the Mishnah mentions the Halachah of Hazkarah near the Halachah of She'eilah (the petition for rain), it must be that we begin reciting both of them on the same day.

According to this explanation, the Mishnah cannot be according to Rebbi Yehoshua of the Mishnah, nor like Rebbi Eliezer of the Mishnah, because according to both of them, the first time we say the Hazkarah is on Yom Tov (either the first day of Yom Tov or the last day), and She'eilah is not said on Yom Tov! Therefore, the Gemara says that the Mishnah must be like Rebbi Yehoshua of the Beraisa, who says that the first day that we mention Hazkarah is the seventh day of Sukos, which is Chol ha'Mo'ed (Hoshanah Rabah), when we recite the weekday Shemoneh Esreh and thus it is possible to say the She'eilah for rain.

(d) The GILYON HA'SHAS quotes the SEFER HA'MACHRI'A of the RI'AZ, who deletes the words "mi'She'as Hanachaso" from the Gemara because of this problem. According to his Girsa, the Gemara is indeed referring to Rebbi Yehoshua of the Mishnah.

4b

QUESTION: The Gemara points out a contradiction in the opinion of Rebbi Yehudah. In the first Mishnah (2a), he says that we stop saying the Hazkarah for rain at Musaf of the first day of Pesach. In the next Mishnah (5a), though, Rebbi Yehudah says that we ask for rain "until Pesach passes," and if we say the She'eilah for rain through Pesach, then certainly we also say the Hazkarah. (The Gemara takes it for granted that Hazkarah is said more frequently than She'eilah, since it is said on the last day of Yom Tov of Sukos although She'eilah is not said until the following weekday. Therefore, if She'eilah is said throughout the entire Pesach then certainly Hazkarah should be said throughout Pesach.)

Several answers are given to resolve this contradiction. Rabah's answer is that when Rebbi Yehudah in the second Mishnah says that we ask for rain until Pesach passes, he means until the time of *Shechitas ha'Pesach* (slaughtering the Korban Pesach) passes, which is the day before Pesach. Rebbi Yehudah is saying that Erev Pesach is when we stop asking for rain. The Hazkarah, though, continues through Shacharis of the first day of Yom Tov, even though the She'eilah stopped the day before.

Abaye challenges Rabah's answer and says that there is no point in saying Hazkarah once She'eilah is no longer being said, because the whole purpose of Hazkarah is to serve as a Ritzuy, a praise of appeasement to Hashem, before She'eilah in which we ask Hashem for rain. If we are not going to be asking Hashem for rain, then there is no point in saying the Hazkarah!

From a simple reading of the Gemara, it seems that when Rabah suggests that She'eilah stops after Erev Pesach, it means that we stop saying She'eilah *Ma'ariv* of the night following Erev Pesach (that is, Ma'ariv of the first day of Yom Tov of Pesach), while Hazkarah continues until the following morning, until the Musaf prayer. This is indeed how RABEINU GERSHOM and RABEINU CHANANEL explain the Gemara.

However, RASHI (DH Ad sh'Ya'avor) explains that what Rabah meant was that She'eilah stops after *Shacharis* of Erev Pesach; at Minchah of Erev Pesach we no longer say She'eilah. Why did Rashi not explain simply that She'eilah continues through Minchah of Erev Pesach and stops only at Ma'ariv? Why should She'eilah stop at Minchah of Erev Pesach? (GEVUROS ARI)

ANSWERS:

(a) The GEVUROS ARI suggests that Rashi's source for asserting that, according to Rabah, we stop She'eilah at Minchah of Erev Pesach is as follows. If we continue She'eilah right until the Ma'ariv of the first day of Pesach, why did Rebbi Yehudah say that She'eilah is said "until [the time for Shechitah of the] Pesach passes?" He should have said simply, "Until the first day of Yom Tov Pesach!" Why did Rebbi Yehudah make the time of the Korban Pesach, and not the day of Yom Tov itself, the reference for when we stop saying She'eilah? It must be that he holds that we stop She'eilah even before Yom Tov arrives -- at Minchah of Erev Pesach.

(b) We might add that there is clear support in the Gemara for Rashi's explanation of the Sugya.

What exactly does it mean that Hazkarah is a "Ritzuy" (praise of appeasement) for She'eilah? There are two ways to understand it. First, it could be that the Hazkarah is preparatory to the She'eilah which we will ask at a later date. As such, we must say Hazkarah only if there is She'eilah on the *following* day. Alternatively, it could mean that Hazkarah is a Ritzuy for the She'eilah that we will ask *on that very day* -- that is, each day's Hazkarah is an appeasement for that day's She'eilah. If so, even if there is no She'eilah on the following day but there is She'eilah today, Hazkarah may be said as appeasement.

Second, is it appropriate to mention Hazkarah as an appeasement only if one is actually going to *say* the Berachah of She'eilah and ask for rain, or is it an appeasement for Hashem to send rain during the rainy season, whether or not we actually ask for rain on that day (for instance on Shabbos and Yom Tov, when we cannot ask for rain)?

We can deduce from our Gemara that the latter two choices are correct. Hazkarah is an appeasement even for the same day's She'eilah, and it is appropriate to mention appeasement even if we do not actually *ask* for rain, but we need rain that day. This is evident from the Gemara's conclusion, which accepts Ula's suggestion that Rebbi Yehudah in the first Mishnah argues with Rebbi Yehudah in the second Mishnah, and that he holds that Hazkarah is continued until after Shacharis of the first day of Pesach. She'eilah, though, has not been mentioned since the last weekday Minchah before that (Minchah of Erev Pesach). How can we mention Hazkarah after She'eilah is no longer said -- Hazkarah is only mentioned as "Ritzuy She'eilah," an appeasement for asking for rain! It must be that since we *would have* asked for rain today had it not been Yom Tov, it is appropriate to mention Hazkarah as appeasement. In the same vein, it is evident from here that even though we will not need rain any more tomorrow (the first day of Chol ha'Mo'ed), it is appropriate to mention Hazkarah today.

If this is true (that a Ritzuy may be said if there exists the potential to say She'eilah), then what is the Gemara's question when it asks on Rabah (who says that Hazkarah is until after the passing of the Korban Pesach) that there is no point in saying Hazkarah on the first day of Yom Tov since there is no She'eilah on that day? Since the first day of Yom Tov is a day that we still need rain, and potentially could have She'eilah (had it not been Yom Tov), we should certainly mention Hazkarah as appeasement! What, then, is the Gemara's question on Rabah?

From here Rashi deduced that according to Rabah, the first day of Yom Tov is *not* a time of potential She'eilah, since *we already stopped saying She'eilah* before Yom Tov, during Minchah of Erev Yom Tov. This is Rashi's proof that according to Rabah She'eilah stops the Minchah before Yom Tov. Because we have stopped asking for rain even on a weekday, we have made it clear that it is no longer a time that is *fit* for She'eilah! (This is explanation is implicit in Rashi DH Aval Sofo.)

RABEINU GERSHOM and RABEINU CHANANEL, who argue with Rashi on this point (as mentioned above). According to their explanation of the Sugya, that Rabah also says there is She'eilah until Yom Tov, why is Ula's answer for Rebbi Yehudah any better than Rabah's? According to Ula, also, there is still Ritzuy on a day when no She'eilah is said (or will be said), since the last Hazkarah is on Yom Tov morning!

Rabeinu Gershom says that although the Gemara concludes like Ula that the two Mishnayos argue about the opinion of Rebbi Yehudah, nevertheless Rebbi Yehudah of the first Mishnah (2a) holds that there *is* She'eilah on the first day of Chol ha'Mo'ed Pesach, and that is why there is Ritzuy on the first day of Pesach -- it is for the She'eilah of the following day. (If so, when the Gemara said "if we begin saying Hazkarah before She'eilah (at the end of Sukos), then certainly whenever we say She'eilah we should also say Hazkarah," it did not mean that we must say Hazkarah every day that we say She'eilah, including the last day of She'eilah. Rather, it means that we say Hazkarah until the day *before* the last day of She'eilah. But on the last day of She'eilah there is no Kal v'Chomer binding us to say Hazkarah, because no Ritzuy is necessary on the last day (since there will be no She'eilah on the following day). (M. Kornfeld)

QUESTION: Rebbi Yochanan says that the Halachah is like Rebbi Yehudah -- we begin saying the Hazkarah for rain on the last day of Yom Tov (Shemini Atzeres), at Musaf. The Gemara asks how can Rebbi Yochanan rule like Rebbi Yehudah, when Rebbi Elazar rules like Raban Gamliel, who says that we begin reciting the She'eilah for rain on the seventh of Marcheshvan (and not at Musaf of Shemini Atzeres).

The Gemara first answers that there is no question, because the two rulings were stated by two different people -- we cannot ask a question on the ruling of Rebbi Yochanan from a ruling of Rebbi Elazar.

The Gemara gives a second answer and says that Rebbi Elazar's ruling does not contradict Rebbi Yochanan's, because the topic of Rebbi Elazar's ruling is She'eilah, while Rebbi Yochanan's ruling is dealing with Hazkarah. In response, the Gemara asks that Rebbi Yochanan says elsewhere that whenever we say She'eilah, we also say Hazkarah.

The simple understanding of the Gemara's question is that the Gemara is asking how can Rebbi Yochanan rule like Raban Gamliel with regard to She'eilah, that we begin saying She'eilah on the seventh of MarCheshvan, and at the same time rule like Rebbi Yehudah, that we begin saying Hazkarah on the last day of Yom Tov, two weeks earlier? Rebbi Yochanan holds that Hazkarah and She'eilah are always said together! Therefore, the Gemara is rejecting the answer that Rebbi Yochanan agrees with Rebbi Elazar, and that Rebbi Elazar was referring to She'eilah while Rebbi Yochanan was referring to Hazkarah. This is indeed the approach of RABEINU GERSHOM and RABEINU CHANANEL.

RASHI, however, explains the Gemara differently. Rashi says that the Gemara's question is how can Rebbi Yochanan rule that we start saying Hazkarah at Musaf on the last day of Yom Tov, if we cannot say She'eilah on Yom Tov (since we do not recite the weekday Shemoneh Esreh then).

Rashi's explanation is difficult to understand for a number of reasons.

First, why does Rashi not explain simply that the Gemara is challenging the previous answer of the Gemara, which tried to show how Rebbi Yochanan could agree with Rebbi Elazar's ruling? According to Rashi's explanation, the Gemara's question has nothing to do with the previous answer, or with Rebbi Elazar's ruling. The Gemara is ignoring Rebbi Elazar altogether and asking on Rebbi Yochanan's own ruling -- how can he rule like Rebbi Yehudah if we cannot say She'eilah on Yom Tov, on the day that we say Hazkarah. Why does Rashi veer from the simple explanation?

Second, the Gemara answers its question on Rebbi Yochanan by saying that "b'Hafsakah Itmar." When Rebbi Yochanan said that Hazkarah and She'eilah must be said together, he was referring to when we *stop* saying them (on Erev Pesach). According to Rashi, this must mean that we stop saying the Hazkarah for rain in the last Shemoneh Esreh of Erev Pesach (which is Minchah) according to Rebbi Yochanan, and we no longer saying Hazkarah at Ma'ariv that night, the first night of Yom Tov (because there is no She'eilah on Yom Tov).

According to this answer of the Gemara, even though Rebbi Yochanan rules like Rebbi Yehudah, he only meant to rule like Rebbi Yehudah concerning when to *start* saying the Hazkarah, but not when to *stop* saying it, because Rebbi Yochanan maintains that we stop saying Hazkarah a day earlier (at Minchah on Erev Pesach) than Rebbi Yehudah holds (at Shacharis on Pesach). This is an original opinion, and there is no Tana that holds of such an opinion! Why does Rashi force himself to create a new opinion? (REBBI AKIVA EIGER; see also RASHASH)

According to the simple explanation (that of Rabeinu Chananel), the first day of Pesach is considered a day on which She'eilah is said (at least in potential), and thus it fulfills Rebbi Yochanan's requirement of saying Hazkarah whenever She'eilah is said (since it is a potential day of She'eilah, for it is only the fact that it is Yom Tov and no weekday Shemoneh Esreh is recited that prevents us from saying She'eilah in practice). The Gemara's question is that Rebbi Yochanan rules that we say Hazkarah on the last day of Yom Tov (Sukos), but we only begin saying She'eilah on the *seventh of Marcheshvan*.

ANSWER: Rashi does not explain like Rabeinu Chananel because he found the question of the Gemara to be very perplexing. How could the Gemara consider it to be a contradiction if Rebbi Yochanan rules one way and Rebbi Elazar rules another way? There is no reason why their two views have to agree, and they may argue like any other Machlokes! The Gemara's first response to this question is correct -- we cannot ask a question on Rebbi Yochanan's ruling from a ruling of Rebbi Elazar!

In addition, the second answer that the Gemara gives is also an obviously correct statement: Rebbi Elazar is discussing only She'eilah, and not Hazkarah. But the Gemara's next question does not make sense, when it asks how can Rebbi Yochanan say that we must say Hazkarah on the same day that we say She'eilah, if he holds like Rebbi Elazar that She'eilah begins only on the seventh of Marcheshvan (two weeks after we start saying Hazkarah). What is the Gemara asking? The Gemara seems to be doubted its assertion a few lines earlier that we cannot ask a contradiction on Rebbi Yochanan's ruling from Rebbi Elazar! Yet there is no apparent reason for the Gemara to be concerned that the two opinions be in agreement.

For this reason, Rashi explains that the Gemara is asking a question on Rebbi Yochanan from his own statement, and not from Rebbi Elazar's statement. The Gemara is asking how can Rebbi Yochanan rule like Rebbi Yehudah, if Rebbi Yochanan himself maintains that Hazkarah and She'eilah must always be said together? According to Rebbi Yehudah, Hazkarah begins a day before She'eilah! (M. Kornfeld)

Rabeinu Chananel, on the other hand, holds that it makes sense to ask a contradiction from a statement of Rebbi Elazar to a statement of Rebbi Yochanan, because Rebbi Elazar was a close disciple of Rebbi Yochanan and it is assumed all of his rulings reflected those of his mentor (as the Gemara says of Rebbi Elazar in Yevamos 96b, Shekalim 11a). This is indeed the way the RITVA (10a) explains our Sugya. Rashi, though, does not follow this approach, either because his Girsa was that the Gemara asked a contradiction between Rav *Chisda* and Rebbi Yochanan, not Rebbi Elazar and Rebbi Yochanan (see Ritva, ibid.) or else because the Gemara here does not mention that Rebbi Elazar was a disciple of Rebbi Yochanan and that he should have ruled like his teacher. (See MITZPEH EISAN and MAR'EH KOHEN. See also REBBI AKIVA EIGER who explains how what Rashi wrote earlier on the page DH b'Makom she'Eino Sho'el is based on his opinion here as well.)